Terzuola Fighting Knife

I just saw this knife in one of my new catalogs. I believe the retail price was about $170 and they were asking about $125.

That seems like an awful lot to me for less than a foot of ATS-34 with two G-10 scales rivetted to it. No guard or other fittings that I could note. I'd guess the material cost of this knife for me as an independent individual would be about $16, and of course I'd expect less if I were a large company buying in bulk. So could you explain how the addition of labor, sheath, and of course middle-men adds up to a retail price of $170? Thanks.

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-Drew Gleason
Little Bear Knives
 
Are you guys talking about what I think is supposed to be called the "CQB1"???

I, too, have heard about this an am eagerly awaiting a pic.

Can anyone help here???
 
What about the status of the bush knife that was alluded to in the "Tek Knives" mag put out by Blade? It mentioned that Terzuola was doing a design with Camillus, but gave no specifications or any other info. And while I'm thinking about it, what about the resurrection of the Becker line?
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Take care,
John Johnson
 
IT is a sweet knife, all bizness, but I think I have to agree with Corduroy on the pricing. The sheath is what is going to be the special part of the system I think, it had Bob t's newly designed and patented belt retension device. the blade was 5.75" if memory serves, and OA length was like just over 10". blade profile is alot like the BlackMoor 2000 from blackjack. In fact, I would almost venture to say that the whole concept is in direct liniage to the Blackmoor. I hope Phil comes out with the utility version I suggested....
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...


YeK

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It is not a matter of whether or not you are paranoid, it is a matter of whether or not you are paranoid enough.

AKTI # A000348
 
Drool..........


YeK

------------------
It is not a matter of whether or not you are paranoid, it is a matter of whether or not you are paranoid enough.

AKTI # A000348
 
I can't wait to get mine!!! That's the prize I picked for winning the CUDA contest. The first one is supposed to roll off the production line around October.

Now I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas.

Mike
 
YEKIM: when I designed the knife for Camillus, I started with my Century Starfighter design and elongated it with some other doodads to fit the fixed blade motif, I am not familiar with the Blackmoor and don't think I have ever seen one. Any resemblance to to that or any other knife is purely coincidental. I too am looking forward to its arrival, particularly because of the TekLok belt attachment which is just hitting the market. Camillus and Spyderco are the first to be using it.
 
Bob,

I apologize for the speculation. The Blackmoor is a knife that looks much like the one you have designed, and has a sheath that was ment to be a multi mount system. I guess that you, and whoever drew up the blackmoor were probably thinking the same thing, and thinking of a similar purpose.

I saw the prototype Camillus knives at the Blade show, and I was pretty impressed. Later on this summer I saw a blackmoor and the first thing I thought was that your knife was ment to be an improvement upon it.

I do have to say that your knife is definately one up, or maybe two up on the now extinct Blackmoor. The sheath alone is alot better. The blackmoor used a nylon retaining strap that had a small copper rod atached to it, that so when the retaining strap was in place, the copper rod would protrude through the kydex sheath, through a hole in the handle of the knife, and into another hole on the back side of the sheath. It is a cumbersome system in drawing the knife, and re-sheathing it.

I again apologize for making the inference, I ment in no way to discredit you or Camillus. I will try to get a picture of the Blackmoor so you can see the similarities for yourself.

I look forward to the release of Your knife. I think it will be a fine addition to the Camillus line up, and it looks like it will be a sucessful design. It appeals to knife junkies like me, and it should appeal to more classy folk who realize that you have not done a fixed blade collaboration before (or at least not in a while, I can't remember which).

YeK

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It is not a matter of whether or not you are paranoid, it is a matter of whether or not you are paranoid enough.

AKTI # A000348

[This message has been edited by Yekim (edited 27 August 1999).]
 
Yekim-
Comparison to the "Blackmoor 2000"

Are you serious?
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I have handled the Camillus and own a Blackmoor. As you know there are some major diffs....

Blackmoor is 12C27 steel (not even 440A!)
CUDA CQB-1 is Laser Cut ATS34. Point-Camillus

Blackmoor has a very thin, morticed stick tang. CUDA has a riveted, grooved, exposed full tang.

The convex ground Blackmoor blades were amateurishly finished and ground. The CUDA CQB-1's so far are looking real nice.

The Blackmoor sheath was pure junk with the hokey fastener system. The CUDA CQB-1 is a as good as kydex gets.

The Blackmoor micarta or G10 )depending on version)handle has no texture and no index point for drawing, re-sheathing or manipulation drills. It is not very well thought out.

The Blackmoor saga is interesting. When Blackjack LOST the Applegate contract for poor quality control they were left with a pile of 12C27 blade blanks for the 6" Applegate fighter. The AWAC series and Blackmoor 2000 are both made from those blanks.

Enjoy your Blackmoor.
IMHO, the CQB-1 is twice the blade.
 
Anthony,

I don't own it (the blackmoor)..I just got to play with it...

You're right, the CQB-1 is twice the knife..

but there is no reason to be snotty about it
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.

YeK
 
See what happens when I leave you kids alone for a while?!
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Mike, many thanks for posting the pic!

Michael Bennett, please send me your shipping address again (one of the few things lost in my system crash, you gotta love back-up tapes!)
Yours will ship the same day as Bob T's!

Corduroy (Drew Gleason), you think $125 is alot to pay for this knife? I think you get alot of knife for that! Let me see if I can explain:

Your estimate of $16 for the ATS-34 is pretty close. When laser cutting this blade from sheets there is alot of scrap between the blade shapes so that eats up any bulk savings. The laser cutting costs are high also.

The handles are not riveted G10 scales. Bob T's design fits the hand like that of an old friend. We could not rely on handwork to duplicate this ergonomic beauty consistantly. The black canvas micarta scales are machined & 3D contoured on CNC mills. The handles are then attached to the finished blade using high head stainless steel screws & bushings. The drive portions of the screws are then sanded off & blended into the pre-shaped handles. As with Bob's handmade fixes blades, an adhesive is also employed between handles & blade to ENSURE this is a permanent assembly! Alot of hand work goes into this knife as the original Bob T prototypes are a tough act to follow!

The sheath is not just an edge protector either! We opted for a Blade-Tech kydex carry system that includes the new Tek-Lok belt fastener as one of the many carry options this sheath affords.

This forum is not the place for me to address your questions regarding dealer margins. Feel free to call me at the factory & we can discuss this further if you wish.
(800) 344 0456 ext. 235

I think that when you handle one of these knives & feel the quality of the design & the fit & finish of the execution you will agree that it is alot of knife for the price.

Please don't take this as a rant, the picture does not do Bob's Design justice.

Put one in your hand!


 
I appreciate the straight answer on this. I do indeed feel it is overpriced, but the sheath system I was unaware of makes up for a lot. Also, Mr. Lombardo has pointed out elsewhere that fixed-blades this size in ATS-34 are almost unknown in production; rarity is also a good justification for price.

I am confused by one thing, though - your reference to contoured scales that are done by machines and could not be trusted to human hands. The scales I see are not contoured, they are simply radiused. Contouring, to me, means an organic shape that varies in thickness as well as width to suit the hand, and is smoothly curved throughout (e.g. Bill Moran's handles). On knives using non-molded materials, this can only be done by hand - certain CNC mills can produce such shapes but are only just seeing use in knives (e.g. Speedtech). I agree that milling scales is an excellent way to uniformly produce them (and has substantial start-up costs) but disagree entirely that it is the best way to produce a nicely contoured handle. The only such handles I know on production knives are of mold-formed materials like Zytel and Kraton due to the extensive handwork this process would otherwise entail.

I apologize if I seem to be singling Camillus out with this question. When I initially saw the knife pictured I was startled by the price (compared to what I have sold my own knives for and seen similar no-name makers selling at) and posted hastily. My feelings have not changed substantially, as it is still just a bar of ATS-34 with two handle slabs and two fasteners, and I would not charge $175 for that if I made it myself (assuming the customer did not ask for a mirror finish, filework, fancy materials, etc.). I do hope, however, that Camillus receives this price and sells a great many of them. Perhaps I should not expect more for my dollar, but rather ask more for the work I do.

-Drew
 
Drew,
Again we see the disadvantages of photographs viewed on FLAT monitors!

The side of the handle the appears to be a flat surface with the two flushed screw heads on is in fact a 37.9549" radius. This results in a single handle thickness of 0.185" at blade emd of handle, 0.275" thickness just rear of handle center & 0.201" thickness at rear of handle.
The edges of this surface are then radiused. It may not seem complex, but radiusing radii involves enough lines of machine code to crash this server!
Can a custom maker do this by hand? Of course he can! Could a custom maker do this by hand consistantly? Yes, I am sure that many GOOD makers could. Any body out there want to make me 600 pair? Tolerances are +/- 0.002" for all dimensions including radii.

You also stated that "I would not charge $175 for that if I made it myself". Hey, wait a minute, you stated in your original post that you saw it priced at $125! Don't forget you will have to purchase the sheaths & Tek-Loks from Tim Wegner & pay a much earned royalty to Bob T. You should also figure a couple of grand for advertising this knife too! I will also expect to be paid for the laser cutting program, the handle CNC code & fixtures, & to post replies to questions on this Forum (& I am not cheap!)
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So now a question to you Drew. Based on this knife being sold to an "average customer" for $125 & the above costs being a true representation of reality, what is your dealer price going to be?
 
First of all, if $175 is the MSRP, then $175 should be what you consider a fair price for the knife. Let's not talk street prices, unless you admit that you are deliberately raising your MSRP to offset them.

I think the problem I am encountering is that I use a simple mental formula for pricing handmade (single person) work versus factory work. Basically I generally figure that a handmade no-name fixed-blade will cost about 2x its factory equivalent and a handmade no-name folder will cost about 2.5x-3x. These multipliers rise rapidly when "big names" become involve - as they should, those names stand for experience and product integrity that neither a no-name maker nor a factory can match.

It's clear that this formula falls apart when applied to very simple fixed-blades (yes, this knife is very simple in my book - it has 3 parts plus two fasteners, no true contouring, and no complex grinds). These knives may involve processes that are easy to do on a small scale, but, as you explained, very difficult to do on a large scale. This is why we have seen a host of makers arise in the past 5-10 years putting out extremely simple fixed-blades at factory-competitive prices ($50-$150). This is also why factory knives of this type run into prices that some makers would charge for a piece with complex fittings, a higher finish, or a more complicated grind or handle shape.

In short, I judged this knife by my idea of what it would cost as a handmade with my little formula applied to it. That formula doesn't work on very simple fixed-blades, and this is why I felt it to be overpriced. I now feel I understand your pricing and why it is justified. I do think you will face stiff competition if buyers are aware of what that money could buy in the handmade market, but that is your business.

-Drew
 
Phil & Drew:

If I may, let me put a slightly different spin on your discussion. No question of the costs of production including the royalties involved. No question either that simple appearing blades, as opposed to the multi-part art types on the extreme other end of the scale, conjur up cause for pause among many ELUs. The Spyderco Moran is a perfect example. It started life with an MSRP in excess of $200 and ended (in it's mirror polished, Moran edged, leather sheathed version) at $80 with a street price about $20 less. All of the manufacturing complexity and the royalty factor in creating the little knife was lost on the vast majority of the buying public. It wasn't until the MSRP was reduced to a price point that the public identified the design with that sales surged. Now Sal has modified the production parameters to eliminate several costly features and ensure profitability with the revised Moran at its new MSRP.

What I feel Drew is doing albiet somewhat indirectly, is raising a concern that the buying public may not initially identify the factors which prompt the projected MSRP and that sales might suffer. In essence a repeat of the early Spyderco Moran history.

But with a projected street price of $125, I frankly don't think you'll have anything to worry about. I think the design is a quantum leap over the Cutlery Shoppe Terzuola "Gryphon" knives. And for Drew's edification, they are/were also ATS-34 but with Zytel handles and cordura sheaths priced at $225 and $150 for a 6.25" and 4" blade respectively. My understanding is that Mr. Terzuola hasn't done much in the way of fixed blades in recent years concentrating on folders. I would therefore expect the Camillus collaboration to generate quite a bit of interest (and sales).

I think you guys are on a great track with the more upscale "CUDA" line of knives. Best of luck
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!

-=[Bob]=-

...born and bred in Syracuse...


[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 05 September 1999).]
 
Badl1,
Thanks as always for your levelheaded, see-all-sides, perspective. We have looked at the pricing on this knife with a critical eye. This is a Bob Terzoula designed and approved knife, and we will build it to Bob T standards. Costs dictate the price.

Corduroy,
I understand your questions, but I believe the one thing we need to do is wait to see the actual knife. This knife will be the finest fixed blade to come out of CAMILLUS that I am aware of. We are into a whole new level of work here. The handles DO have multi-contours, and they feel great! Bob T would have it no other way. The sheath is awesome, ...if you bought a one off custom sheath with all the attachments like this from BLadeTech, it would probally run $40 alone, maybe more. No complex grinds? well its got everything but a re-curved blade. We set MSRP at $179.95 because we DO feel its worth it. When we price an item, we start wiht our costs, not with what we think the market will bear. The $125 price is something that you mentioned and Phil responded to. Frankly, whomever is advertising that knife at that price, WITHOUT EVEN RECIEVING A FINISHED PRODUCT, is needlessly working on extremely thin margins.

Drew, we really do appriciate the feedback, thats why we are here[ok, phil and I would probally be here anyway]. We feel the level of quality that we are building into this knife easily justifies the $179.95 MSRP. The repsonse from our dealers and distributors that saw advance samples has been very positive. The response at the BLADESHOW from the public was very positive. I ask you to reserve judgement until after you have a chance to check out the finished product in person. If you have any questions about how our dealer and distributor discount pricing structures work, I'm sorry but thats something we are unwilling to talk about on a open forum, but give phil or I a call, we will be glad to discuss it with you.

BTW, I checked out your web page,.....your work looks great.

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Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery




[This message has been edited by Will Fennell (edited 05 September 1999).]
 
The more I think about this topic, the more I feel my confusion is due to the strange things that are happening on the bottom end of the handmade fixed-blade market. There are makers producing such dirt-simple fixed blades at rock-bottom prices that they are quite comparable to production knives.

Now, that forces me to ask the question of whether I'd rather have a production piece at the same price... and to conclude that perhaps I would. That's like blasphemy for me to think a production piece might offer better workmanship and performance than handmade, but, alas, it may be so. It's clear that the bar is raised further each year for production knives, while I feel it has been lowered enormously for handmades.
That's not to say that the high-end of handmade pieces are worse knives today than they were five years ago - the "best of the best" gets better each passing year. It's the low-end that has sunk so dramatically, with more and more new makers concentrating on pieces that involve little more than rough-grinding a piece of steel, slapping on some scales, and bead-blasting the whole mess. I don't feel this makes use of any of the skills and abilities that make a "handmade" piece so special, but I guess there's a market for it...

So here we are, with a production company producing a fixed-blade that may easily rival many of the handmades in its class, even those that cost less. That's disturbing to me, but I was wrong to direct my criticism towards Camillus. It's clear that on your side of the equation you're working to produce a very good production knife, and you've justified the costs this entails. Thank you for the time you've taken and the civility you've shown explaining the matter.

-Drew
 
Will,

Thanks for the kind words. I try
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!

you're undoubtedly correct too in pointing out that the WAG for the street price is a tad low. I suspect it'll be more in the $135 - $150 range. That doesn't alter my comments a bit as I still see many folks hungry for a nice collaborative commercial fixed Terzuola blade. And that, you folks look to be satisfying with distinction!



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-=[Bob]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

Registered 3 Oct 98. BFC's first day in existance
AKTI membership pending
VHA and NRA member
Founding member of Praire Thunder Inc.

 
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