TESTING Spyderco S30V vs. VG10

the native that I had came with chips straight from the factory. some time with my sharpmaker and it was Ok - but still couldn't touch s30v from any other source that I have used.

spyderco should stick to vg10 as they do it very well. a sub 60 dollar knife with a big s30v blade is unrealistic IMO and thats why the native suffers.
 
I had a similar experience comparing ATS-34 and S30V. Initially I was quite disappointed by the edge holding of the S30V, but I had recently polished the ATS-34 blade to a 10000 grid, after I had done the same to the S30V blade it easily pulled ahead. This is one of the reasons why I am a big fan of highly polished edges. They hold much longer IMHO.
 
Thanks for the review, Jason.
The finish of the blade definitely made a difference. The coarse grit surface of the S30V blade clearly placed it in an awful spot for corrosion and it meant that the edge was always going to be prone to corrosion-induced dulling. Its not a simple matter of saying that all will be better if the blades were both finished to the same degree. I feel that manufacturers are unlikely to be willing to invest in the increased tooling and work costs of more finishing on S30V. Therefore, I feel that coarse grit finished S30V blades will be the norm.
Click to expand...
I've said it before and I'll say it again . . . between steels like 440C, ATS-34, VG-10, and S30V, differences in finish will probably outweigh inherent corrosion resistance when it comes to which will rust more easily when subject to the same environment.

Remember that these findings are at best applicable only to Spyderco's VG-10 and S30V. They cannot be extrapolated to other manufacturers knives of the same steel because of differences in heat treatment. Even within one company, there can be unexpected factors such as steel inclusions, varying quench rates within a HT batch, accidental overheating of the edge, etc.

We're fortunate to have standard tests for corrosion (Q-fog CCT, salt spray, etc) and abrasive wear resistance (CATRA). We don't have applicable tests for toughness (Charpy tests are not relevant to thin cross-sections/edges for good reasons). People combine these three results to armchair which steel outperforms what, but only thoughtfully reasoned real-world testing yields true results. Nice work Jason!

As an aside, I think that the best comparisons between steels comes from tests by custom knifemakers. They can make identical knives from different steels with full control over the process (same geometry, finish, edge, heat treater, quality control, etc.). In other words, they can get closer to "all else being equal" than with production knives.
 
I enjoyed you comparison, but I also believe that you should have sharpened both knives to the same angle before you started the test. I would love to read an update now that you have resharpened both knives. :D
 
I wonder if the Spyderco US factory is not as capable as their Japanese subcontractors of getting a good plain edge. I have only one plain edge knife from the US factory, but its edge was significantly rougher and it has a poorer grind compared to my other 3 plain edge japanese blades. I have also purchased a US made native for a present, and it too had a sharp, but rough edge that needed some polishing right out of the box. The finish on the japanese blades is also finer with a higher polish.
 
Besides roughness, it is possible for factory edges to also exhibit weakness. The machine processes used to put on a quick factory edge can leave the edges weak. I always remove the factory edge before testing edge durability.
 
Nice review - I like the fact that it wasn't done in a controlled lab, but in the field. I especially like the fact that you "amended" your findings after resharpening: that shows a lot of fairness.

Both steels have been great for me, but I tend to agree that Spyco does a better job with the VG10: the factory edges seem to be more durable with VG10

VG10 is definitly easier to bring back to sharp (does anything strop as nicely as that steel?), but the S30 is worth the effort. Where it really shines for me is after it loses it's shaving sharpness - then it just seems to go on forever with great functional sharpness.

Thom
 
A course or rough bevel and edge on S30V is a mistake. I have seen this problem on more than one knife. The finer stone you use the better.
 
Finish does seem to make a difference. The Spyderco knives I've seen coming from the Golden factory do tend to exhibit a courser edge than the ones from Japan. My recent black-bladed military had an extremely course edge on it from the factory. It plain sucked. I cleaned it up on the 204, and finished with the very fine grit white stones (not the white ones that the 204 comes with, but the even finer grit ones). I can now get it much sharper, and it holds an edge much better.

Having said that, my experience with s30v is that Benchmade does a better job than Spyderco in general. The aformentioned Ritter RSK Mk1 was by far the sharpest knife I've ever seen from any factory. We're talking razor blade type of scary sharpness here!!! Really! Also, I can get the best edge out of any of my knives on the RSK Mk1, and that includes many knives of various steels and grinds from numerous manufacturers.

Benchmade's s30v also holds up (stays sharper longer) better than anything I've personally carried to date while still being fairly easy to sharpen. This includes D2 and M2, and it is really tough to get the edge there on those steels in the first place.
 
nice review Jason, and i must say that my experience between these steels, straight from the factory, is exactly the same.

having compared my Spyderco Military VS Police i've noticed many of the things you mentioned: s30v-blades come rougher from the factory meaning they tend to snag/catch a little on materials being cut, it takes more attention to detail to sharpen properly to a razor-edge, edge-holding is longer but doesn't really make it better because of that, etc.....

personally i don't mind sharpening much, so edge-holding isn't really enough for me to prefer more expensive cpm-steels (or bg42, d2,.....) above softer steels like aus6/8, vg10. also, i sharpen on cheap stones from the local hardware-store, so hard steels are a pain to sharpen when dulled significantly.

another thing i personally noticed is that powdered steels, such as s30v and 440v tend to chip more than other steels. maybe because it's more hard/brittle? anyone else noticed that?

denn
 
Speaking of expertise in different steels: There are two knives in my truck console: a Benchmade RSK (S30V) and the Spyderco Delica (VG-10). There is no comparing the two knives, they each have a different purpose and they don't compete. It's always good to keep in mind the manufacturer's expertise in different steels.

Regarding factory edges, I thought my BM940 (154CM) was sharp out of the box until I touched it up. Now it's sharp :) Didn't change the edge geometry, I'm not a knife designer and I don't play one on the internet so why should I second guess the people who designed the knife -- I just polished the edge. Knives are a compromise of sharpness, hardness and toughness. Thinning the edge may improve sharpness at the expense of both hardness and toughness which impacts edge holding. So I try to not mess with the blade design.
 
In principle S30V should be substantially tougher than VG-10 (one of the few advantages) and Spyderco mentioned a while ago, that they run their S30V just a tad softer than VG-10 as they found that that gave overall a better blade performance.

Personally, I have yet to have a bad experience with the factory sharpness of a Spyderco knife (unlike the experiences I had with their QC). My Manix, Yo and Lil'T could all cut free hanging kitchen paper towles and I find that a rather difficult test to pass. The fact that I don't care much for their unpolished edges is mainly personal preference as I think the edge should always be considered as such. I think every knife should be usable straight out of the box, but it should be up to the individual user to put which ever edge on it that the user preferes. I know that many people polish their blades and then move back down a couple of grits to get a more toothy edge. I have tried that and really don't care for it, but that just shows how much all of that is personal preference. I wouldn't fault a company for doing one or the other.

It's great to read about the experiences of an actual knifemaker. Thanks, Walt2.
 
Wow !!! Thanks for all the responses and ideas thrown in as well.

All suggestions and criticisms regarding my flawed experimental technique are well-taken. I entered into this with the full knowledge that I was comparing 2 knives with very different levels of finish and understood right from the outset that this would affect the results.

My philosophy behind choosing to do this was to demonstrate 2 things.

Firstly, many, if not most, knife users will use a knife right out of the box. It is the knife manufacturer of knifemaker's responsbility to ensure that the cutting tool gets to the customer with the best possible cutting performance. While I'd reasonably assume that most of us here are "Knife Knerds" and will test and check AND CORRECT any problems we find when playing with our new toy, many buyers will not...

Secondly, there is more to knife performance than steel selection.

I continue to happily carry the S30V Native and use it regularly, and the performance of the steel does impress me. The size and heft of this knife is also very handy. While I still seem to prefer the way carbon steels like O1 and 1095 serve me, I am also one who is happy with the performance of many other steels like ATS34, BG42, VG10, D2. Therefore, I am probably not very "fussy." As long as it holds an edge longer than AUS6 and AUS8 and doesn't chip out at the edge like some of my cheaper knives.

I hope to find some more responses, but many thanks again for the input from everyone. Jason.
 
Read all of the threads and this is a good subject. I thought I would do a little checking of my own on my two Natives (VG10 and S30V).
I like the S30V with it's edge holding abilities. I like the VG10 because it seems to attack cardboard.

I don't think I will replace the Calypso Jr anytime soon, it's a perfect office knife. On the other hand the Paramilitary is my weekend and at home all around knife.

I don't have trouble sharpening S30V with my Edge Pro. The Jr
 
How it performs with respect to rough vs polished edges is a matter of what is being cut and how more so than the steel. S30V works well with a coarse edge, more so than a polished one when drawing on a cut, push cutting fruits and carrots, especially on a hard cutting board would of course desire a polished edge for optimal performance. This again is nothing in particular sensitive to S30V, its a common characteristic to all steels.

-Cliff
 
S30V is not tolerant of a coarse edge. Few steels really are, but S30V is less so. Many makers who were at first unimpressed with S30V became so when they refined their edges.
 
I have to step in here with ONE of my current observations in ongoing testing and past experience. I also state from the start that I am in total agreement with what Jerry Hossum just said. Particularly - (paraphrased) "...very few steels are ... tolerant of a coarse edge."

Intuitively, a coarse edge (or very coarse, large grain) acts like tiny serrations and will rake through fibrous materials better. However, the coarseness potentially sets itself up with multiple tiny stress risers, making the coarse "teeth" prone to breakage and premature edge failure.

I have resharpened the edge on the S30V blade. It is a slightly convexed version of the original factory edge. It has been taken to a stropped razor edge. And thus far, it seems to REALLY hold that finely finished edge extraordinarily well.

Mind you, This means that it is cutting on par with the VG10 blade now. I'm still not able to say for certain in day to day utility use (not hard at all) that the S30V holds an edge longer. Maybe I'm just not noticing it yet.

Thanks. Jason.
 
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