Testing....

[James Healy]

Just a few things i felt needed to be said. If i am wring in any of my reasoning, feel free to correct me, or offer your own opinion.

I was reading the febuary issue of Blade, and then Knives Illustrated. I saw a very visually impressive ad depicting a modified tanto style knife through a peice of steel plate. The knife was a Florida tactical knives TAC11. The article in KI talks about how exactly it was driven through this plate. A hydraulic press was used to ram it through 1/8 steel plate.

My point? Just tha validity of the test... I can understand the need for the press, it would be pretty tiring and difficult to stab a knife through something that thick, but the press allows pressure to be put on in a very controlled fashion. It slowly builds up the weight on the end of the handle, gradually driving the knife through thr sheet metal. Problems with this?

As i see them...

1) The knife is stressed along the long axis, the strongest area of the knife. It was extremely unlikely to break while having this performed on it.

2) Becuase of the ammount of force that a hydraulic press can muster, it really doesn't matter how sharp the tip is. As long as it's strong, there's a good chance it will be driven through. In a real world scenario, where the bad guy doesn't want to lie down and have a knife rammed through him by a press, tip sharpness does matter. (Note: I am not making an attack on Florida knives in any way, simply on the validity of their testing)

3) As far as i am aware, a certin company drove their knife through 1/2 of steel plate (hint: They start with B), twice as much as This advert is bragging about. This other company does not use dramatic photos in it's adverts, for reasons i'm sure we are all aware of.

I could say more, but i may be taken as an attack against the company, which i am unwilling to post here. E-mail me if you really want to hear it.


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People who say knives are innefective weapons have never been stabbed

 

[Cliff Stamp]

James :

Becuase of the ammount of force that a hydraulic press can muster, it really doesn't matter how sharp the tip is. As long as it's strong, there's a good chance it will be driven through.

A tip with better penetration will allow less force to be used and thus lower the strain on the blade. Is it stated what kind of steel the plate is and the RC?

As for what it says about the blade - you can exert a lot of force straight down on it and press it through something really hard without damaging the knife if you do it in a controlled manner. I would be more curious what the results would be though if they just had some guy stab it through the plate about 50 times and compare it to a bunch of other knives.

In any case, the TAC-11 seems to be a very durable and functional knife - there was a review of it a short while back.

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001388.html

-Cliff

 

[James Healy]

Cliff - I had posted a reply, but it didn't work. Therefore, here is a rough idea of what i said.

The steel was .118 inch steel plate (no mention of metalurgy)It was the non-slip, diamond checkered pattern stuff they use on walkways etc. It was in it's annealed state. No mention of RC, but i would guess not all that high.

I agree, a person ramming it through multiple times would be a much move valid test, that was my original point...It would also help to know how much pressure it took to drive the knife through the plate....

I'm sure they are fine knives, and if i could afford one, i would probably buy it. My intention was simply to comment on the testing they were doing.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Seems to me how well the knife is aligned is a critical factor. Apply a force to a long thin compression member in perfect alignment ... it's not going to buckle. Doh! In the real world when you thrust at something you're not going to do it in perfect alignment ... you're likely to be far off, applying a great deal of sideward force.

And here again we have a test of one knife with no comparison. Maybe you can push just about any knife through diamondplate with a hydraulic jack for all we know. That could be as meaningless a test as stabbing a car door.

Cougar's First Law of Knife Testing: Testing a knife at something I've never tried to do with a knife and proving the knife you're selling can do it ... doesn't impress me at all.

If they did the same test with all their competitor's knives and they all broke, then maybe I'd be interested in the results. As it is, I can only assume all the competition would have done just as well and the test proves nothing ... when I read an ad (and magazine articles are even less reliable than ads because they're not covered by even the loosely enforced false advertising ads we have) I have to assume that if they could have proven their knife is in any way better than the competition ... they would have done so.

-Cougar Allen :{)
"Buy my knife -- it can cut right through warm butter!!!"

 

[Cobalt]

I think a person testing versus a ram is more realistic as you are not likely to have the help of a ram to do the work. I know some people that test knives by stabbing them into metal drums to see signs of blade damage. I have done this myself only once and it was a lot of fun, but severely damaged the tip of the knife. It seems that the knives that survive these tests best are the ones with a lot of material to the tip like tanto's or heavy bowies(Mine was thinner). The knife I wasted was a dagger style knife.

I once read a test in tactical knives were the tester took the knives to a junk yard and he and his partner proceeded to run around stabbing car doors and roofs with the knives. The most impressive part was that the knives did not receive that much damage. They were impressed with the knives to say the least.

 

[gschwab]

James:

My name is George Schwab, I work for Tom Johanning, the maker of the TAC-11 survival knife. Since Tom is out of the office I thought I'd take a moment to respond to your post. First let me say that your post makes many valid points regarding "testing" of knives.
you are correct,when using a hydraulic press, given enough pressure and with correct alignment, one could probably press any blunt peice of steel through another.
I don't think it was Tom's intention to imply that this is a true "real world" test of his knife. Tom had also read a great deal about knives being punched through car doors and steel drums, and simply wanted, for his own satisfaction, to see if the TAC knife could do something more, without damage to the tip or cutting edge, it did.
The plate the TAC-11 was pressed through is common diamond plate steel (mild) in an annealed state. Real knife "testing" is a very difficult (in my opnion) thing to do, what I might expect from a knife can vary a great deal from what another user might expect.
Also, "in house" testing is one of those things that (again, "in my opinion") can be taken with a grain of salt, lets face it, a maker is likely to be inclined to conduct tests that he is sure his knife is going to pass, I have yet to see many knife makers post articles about their knives failing a given test. As Cliff mentioned here, There was a review by a real person, using the knife in real situations, also there have been a few other magazine articles written where the author himself has given this knife the once over. If you would like to read them, I have them posted on Tom's web site at http://www.survivalknives.com/articles.html
I guess the best test of any knife is, does it do what the user expects it to, If it does, it passes, if not, if fails.

George

 

[blademan 13]

I believe I also saw a test of one of Tom's knives in "Blade". It was indeed found to be a virtually bulletproof knife.

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It's only a mistake if you fail to learn from it!

 

[gschwab]

George here again,
I would also like to reply to Cougar's post,
you are correct, comparison testing is indeed a much more impressive test, however it would prove quite expensive to purchase one of every competitors knives for such a test. And there is no doubt that there are many knives out there that could be punched through a steel plate. (please read my reply to James)The REAL test can only be performed by the person who owns one,you are either satisfied with it and feel it performs the tasks you expect of it or your not.
You also mention that you find magazine articles "even less reliable" than advertising. While I might agree to some extent, if the article was written by the maker himself, but what about those written by independant authors? Those who have written about Tom's knives, and knives from many other knife makers, are paid by the magazine publisher to write a story, not by the knife maker. What reason would they really have to falsify there findings?
In closing, you mention that "If they could have proven their knife is in any way better than the competition...they would have done so"
How does one "prove" its any "better"
Again, I say that only the user can make that determination, the qualities you find important in a knife may be very different than another person. Tom stands behind his knives with a satisfaction guarantee for that very reason, if you receive your knife and are not satisfied, you simply return it for a full refund of your purchase price, no questions asked.

George

 

[Cliff Stamp]

George :

however it would prove quite expensive to purchase one of every competitors knives for such a test

Very much so, it would be interesting though to see something like an A2 TAC-11 compared against an A8 TAC-11. Or even an A8 TAC-11 with a different point to show the strength of the current version. Things like that. As Cougar noted, unless something is shown to fail it is very difficult to guage the performance.

-Cliff

 

[Cougar Allen]

First off I'd like to emphasize I'm not trashing this particular knife; I know nothing about it.

Cobalt, just about any knife on the market can be stabbed into auto bodies without damage. Try it. If it's a $5 420-J2 knife it will be significantly dulled, especially if you do it twenty or thirty times.... That's exactly the kind of advertising demonstration I'm talking about -- it's about as impressive a test as cutting warm butter, and the only reason it can impress anybody is most people have never tried it. If I had never tried cutting warm butter I might be impressed by an ad proving a knife can do that without being damaged, too....

Originally posted by gschwab:
You also mention that you find magazine articles "even less reliable" than advertising. While I might agree to some extent, if the article was written by the maker himself, but what about those written by independant authors? Those who have written about Tom's knives, and knives from many other knife makers, are paid by the magazine publisher to write a story, not by the knife maker. What reason would they really have to falsify there findings?

Um ... the writer of an article is paid by the publisher who is paid by the advertisers ... much as the writer of an ad is paid by the advertising agency which is paid by the manufacturer ... but it's not the same as an ad. The difference is it's not covered by false advertising laws.

Reviews posted on the net are different. We don't get paid for writing them; we don't even get free knives for writing reviews -- and don't accept them if offered. When I post a review, or Cliff Stamp or Cobalt or any of us, everyone who reads it knows although we might be idiots we are at least objective. And after reading a person's posts over a period of time you can form your own opinion about whether he's an idiot or not....

In closing, you mention that "If they could have proven their knife is in any way better than the competition...they would have done so"
How does one "prove" its any "better"

How is it better? If it holds an edge longer you can prove that; if it's stronger you can prove that; if the handle ergonomics are better maybe you can't prove that in an ad, but there's no need to; people can test that claim for themselves in the store....

The best way to prove it's better is to get one or more of us knife knuts to test it. You might have a look at some of the reviews and comparison tests posted here.... Most of them are knives we've bought; the remainder are knives that the maker (or somebody who owned one and wanted to see how it would do in testing) sent to a reviewer with an established reputation who returned it after testing -- sometimes in pieces, but we always return them, unless we decide to buy them -- we don't even accept discounts, nothing that could compromise our objectivity.

Again, I say that only the user can make that determination, the qualities you find important in a knife may be very different than another person.

That's something we make a point of explaining in the reviews we post -- or if we don't, somebody will ask. Of course the best way to decide whether you want to buy a particular knife would be to try it out yourself. Getting the opinions of other knife knuts who have used the knife, people who know knives, people who post their experience with a knife and answer questions and try additional tests if you ask them to ... it doesn't get any better than this.

For instance, if someone had posted that hydraulic jack test here we would have asked him to try the same test with other knives and to try thrusting with it manually.

Tom stands behind his knives with a satisfaction guarantee for that very reason, if you receive your knife and are not satisfied, you simply return it for a full refund of your purchase price, no questions asked.

I'm glad to hear that; that's one of the things we ask about here.

Understand, I'm not saying this knife isn't good or even that it isn't anything special. All I know at this point is I haven't seen any evidence to indicate there's anything special about it. I'm quite prepared to believe it is special, if I see any evidence of that in the future.

Lynn Griffith got together with some other members recently to do some knife testing and one of the tests they did was somewhat similar -- they tried forcing a knife through a bolt with a vise, tightening the vise to force it through. That's similar in that the force was aligned and gradual, like that hydraulic test, and maybe it wasn't a very realistic simulation of the ways knives are normally used. The difference is they tested a number of knives, and some of them did it without much damage to the edge, and some of them failed miserably. That gave us some information. Lynn had some other members present as witnesses (he's a knifemaker and some of the knives he was testing were his own) and he posted pictures of the knives after the test, showing how they were affected. He posted details of exactly how the testing was done, what kind of bolts he used etc., and answered questions to clarify that. We all have knives and probably most of us have a vise, and we saw pics ... now we can try the same test ourselves and see how it affects the knives we have. We might be wondering whether we should buy one of Lynn's knives, wondering if it would be an improvement over one we already have....

I'm glad to see you here on the forums. Please don't take anything I've posted as criticizing your knife; all I'm saying is that particular ad doesn't impress me ... it proves nothing one way or the other. The same applies to most ads....

-Cougar :{)

 

[RJ Martin]

George: Since you work with Tom, perhaps you might answer a question I've wanted to ask ever sisnce I first saw the ad for the knife, showing it pressed thru the plate (very impressive, BTW)
The knife appears to be bead blasted, and, there is no apparent narring or scratching of the point of the knife after being pressed thru the plate. Was just wondering if you touched it up before shooting the photo, or something else.
This is not intended as anything but a question-I have just always wondered that.
It's impressive-A7 is certainly algreat steel for a knife of that type.

Thanks,

RJ Martin

 

[Columbo]

Nope. Doesn't prove much about the knife. Unless, of course, the paperwork that comes with the knife also says it should only be used in a hydraulic jack. But it did prove that the ad did it's job.

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Dave
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If a tree falls in the forest, and there is nobody there to hear it, then don't worry about it.

 

[Ben E Hana]

Cougar"we dont even accept discounts,nothing that could compromise our objectivity"

I would just like to state for the record that I am always willing to compromise my objectivity for free knives.

(discounts work too)
thank you,
troy

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"stupid is as stupid does"
Gump's momma

 

[gschwab]

Originally posted by rj martin:
George:
The knife appears to be bead blasted, and, there is no apparent narring or scratching of the point of the knife after being pressed thru the plate. Was just wondering if you touched it up before shooting the photo, or something else.

Thanks,

RJ Martin

RJ
Yes the knife is bead blasted before being pressed through, nothing was done to the knife after being pushed through the plate. The plate is a mild steel in an annealed state while the blade is heat treated A-8. There are some "rub" marks on the blade but they don't show up in the photos. I'm sure Tom will have the display with him at the Blade show if anyone wants to get a closer look.

Thanks
George

 

[gschwab]

Originally posted by Cougar Allen:
First off I'd like to emphasize I'm not trashing this particular knife; I know nothing about it.

No problem, I didn't take it that way at all
I really like seeing all the different points of view here really!

Um ... the writer of an article is paid by the publisher who is paid by the advertisers ... much as the writer of an ad is paid by the advertising agency which is paid by the manufacturer ... but it's not the same as an ad. The difference is it's not covered by false advertising laws.

Good point, had not thought about it that way.

The best way to prove it's better is to get one or more of us knife knuts to test it. You might have a look at some of the reviews and comparison tests posted here.... Most of them are knives we've bought; the remainder are knives that the maker (or somebody who owned one and wanted to see how it would do in testing) sent to a reviewer with an established reputation who returned it after testing -- sometimes in pieces, but we always return them, unless we decide to buy them -- we don't even accept discounts, nothing that could compromise our objectivity.

I agree, Tom let Dan test one of his knives ( the results are posted here). I can't speak for Tom on this one but perhaps someone from this group might contact him direct to see if he would be interested in having another evaluation done.

I'm glad to see you here on the forums. Please don't take anything I've posted as criticizing your knife;
-Cougar :{)

Having fun so far!

 

[gschwab]

Originally posted by Cougar Allen:
First off I'd like to emphasize I'm not trashing this particular knife; I know nothing about it.

No problem, I didn't take it that way at all
I really like seeing all the different points of view here really!

Um ... the writer of an article is paid by the publisher who is paid by the advertisers ... much as the writer of an ad is paid by the advertising agency which is paid by the manufacturer ... but it's not the same as an ad. The difference is it's not covered by false advertising laws.

Good point, had not thought about it that way.

The best way to prove it's better is to get one or more of us knife knuts to test it. You might have a look at some of the reviews and comparison tests posted here.... Most of them are knives we've bought; the remainder are knives that the maker (or somebody who owned one and wanted to see how it would do in testing) sent to a reviewer with an established reputation who returned it after testing -- sometimes in pieces, but we always return them, unless we decide to buy them -- we don't even accept discounts, nothing that could compromise our objectivity.

I agree, Tom let Dan test one of his knives ( the results are posted here). I can't speak for Tom on this one but perhaps someone from this group might contact him direct to see if he would be interested in having another evaluation done.

I'm glad to see you here on the forums. Please don't take anything I've posted as criticizing your knife;
-Cougar :{)

Having fun so far!

 

[Cobalt]

Cobalt, just about any knife on the market can be stabbed into auto bodies without damage. Try it.
__________________

Cougar, I know that since I have done it myself, but if you read what I wrote you will see that I wrote repreatedly, meaning many times. In fact I think it said that 50 to 100 times. Now, you go get a cheap knife and do that and it will break. I know because I have done it. Try that sometime, you will see what happens.

Maybe we can get some TAC 11 tests out here to compare to the other knives already tested. Since Cliff has already tested most of the tough knives available, I would think it would be a good idea to for him to perform the test. GEORGE are you willing to send him a knife for testing to compare with all the other ones he has tested?

 

[edrozen]

HERE'S THE REAL ANSWER:
Hi, all,
As a dedicated reader of blade there was article printed in there about the TAC 11 that said the stuff was Diamond plate, and the emphasis was that it was very, very tough. So tough, that it could not be pushed through with human hands, thus the press. They also said the test ended up bending the blade like 1" and it returned true (don't quote me on that) Also they end up really beating the crap out of that knife, by cutting through 2x4 and other materials and they said it ends up cutting superbly, but more importantly, no sore hands. If anyone really wants me to dig out the article, let me know.

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One small step for man, One giant leap for frogs, One mile for fleas.
It's all about perspective.

 

[edrozen]

HERE'S THE REAL ANSWER:
Hi, all,
As a dedicated reader of blade there was article printed in there about the TAC 11 that said the stuff was Diamond plate, and the emphasis was that it was very, very tough. So tough, that it could not be pushed through with human hands, thus the press. They also said the test ended up bending the blade like 1" and it returned true (don't quote me on that) Also they end up really beating the crap out of that knife, by cutting through 2x4 and other materials and they said it ends up cutting superbly, but more importantly, no sore hands. If anyone really wants me to dig out the article, let me know.

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One small step for man, One giant leap for frogs, One mile for fleas.
It's all about perspective.

 

[Cobalt]

I for one would like to see the article.

Also, what is the chemical makeup of the steel. All my materials books are in storage along with most of my knives. Crap!