The 25 seems to add complexity to the simplistic 21 without adding function.

[Macchina]

I bought my first Sebenza years ago (a regular which I got very cheap because the previous owner had messed up the scales bad trying to jimp them with a hacksaw [literally]). After that I bought a classic, a micarta 21, and a first gen Zaan. Fast forward to today and I've sold them all off to support other hobbies but I find myself interested in knives again. I just purchased a 21 off the exchange and am excitedly awaiting its arrival. When I owned my last set of Sebenzas I had bought enough Benchmade, Spydercos, and ZT's to know that no knife would ever match a CRK in quality and perfection of design. I don't plan on selling this 21 because I've seen there's not any knives that can touch it.

I have since been reading up on the 25 and it all it's pros/cons. I planned on selling off a few of my Benchmades to get one, but now I'm having second thoughts. I don't really know if anything on the 25 is a true upgrade or just a lateral shift. I am a Product Engineer and I know that features touted by a manufacturer have to be looked at closely to determine if the manufacturer is meeting the customer's requests or if the manufacturer is telling you what your requests should be. A lot of panic can be created by a competitor releasing a design that is claiming to be worlds better than yours, but when you actually handle their product you see it is an exact copy to what they claim to have improved on. This example is in no way calling CRK a copier, it is implying that as a manufacturer you must advertise a products features even if they are not improvements over the past generation, it's just how our world works

I'm not saying CRK doesn't make an awesome knife and know how to do it (I feel they are the best at what they do), I'm saying the Sebenza (in the form of the 21) was already an extremely evolved design and may not be able to be improved at all without changing what the original design goal was. Chris Reeve himself says the design of the Sebenza is supposed to be "Simplistic, no-nonsense". Using that metric, I have to ask if the 25 has "improved" on the 21 by ADDING to the knife. The 25 ADDS the ceramic ball, additional fasteners, a second finger guard, blade thickness, bevel thickness, and handle thickness. None of these additions make the Sebenza any more simplistic, they do not address existing problems of the 21 (I've never heard of a snapped blade, slippage due to no finger grooves, overworn lockbar, or bent handles on a Sebenza). Not only that, but to add these features to the design, CRK removed the pivot bushing and common fasteners from the design, 2 features I saw as brilliant product design and a big draw to the Sebenza. I am not slamming the 25's design, and I want to want a 25 but I can't talk myself into it being an improvement of the simplistic no-nonsense design of the 21 which was already the result of many generations of improvements. The Zaan was the CRK's answer to the tactical knife market (and a very good response for it's intended market), the 25 seems to be designed for heavier use which is ironic because the slimmer (and more efficient) 21 is never used beyond it's own abilities.

It feels like one of those fully loaded Jeeps with every bell and whistle (and snorkel) that can climb a hill exactly as well as a stock CJ but the CJ weighs 1,000 pounds less and can fit down tighter trails without axle extensions and side-knobbed tires... And to make this comparison even more realistic: both Jeeps only ever stay in the garage, are washed daily, oil changed weekly, and don't have a scratch on them; the owners only start them up over and over again while watching TV (but you can't beat a Jeep's resale value) .

 

[Officer's Match]

My first 25 arrives tomorrow (morning, I hope). I wrestled with it theoretically before deciding "I got's to know". My initial no-experience objections are (1.) lack of pivot bushing, (2.) "interference" stop-bar and (3.) finger grooves. As for#1, I have been a very happy camper with my (old pivot, pre-OTS, S35V) Umnumzaan, so maybe not having the bushing isn't so bad. Would prefer that #2 didn't "have" to be, but 25 owners have assure that it's necessary given the design, and as for #3, well we shall see. I can tell you the thought of carefully eliminating the "bumps" has bounced freely around in my cranium - insert your own joke here.

 

[kidcongo]

I guess I agree about the 25 in some way, but we can't expect CRK to just keep pumping out the same old Sebenza, and not much else, for decades because its perfect. That sounds pretty boring for a creative company. I would like to think Chris Reeve is still excited and interested in the design process, and to keep sending out new products into the world. There gotta be some life after a design 'high water mark' like the 21 and I look forward to trying a 25, though I doubt it would be better than my 21, just different maybe, and like you say with 'added features' that may be unnecessary.

I think CRK in some way also agrees with you as we see no shortage of new 21s being produced in multiple flavours. If anything the 25 is still a novelty act, with the 21 being the core product line. The pivot bushing is in no way discontinued, its just not a feature of the 25. I worry more I'll see the 25 discontinued before I get hold of one than the 21.

 

[Officer's Match]

One thing I do like about the 25 is the abandoning of the "machining" hole. Looks much cleaner there, now if the finger bumps could go away...

 

[Macchina]

One thing I do like about the 25 is the abandoning of the "machining" hole. Looks much cleaner there, now if the finger bumps could go away...

I agree on that point. I also think the reduction of fasteners, lanyard holes, etc. was a simplifying of the design even though the Sebenza itself is a fairly sparse design and doesn't look over-featured with 3 or 4 fasteners/holes showing per side.

I am surprised the 25 actually wasn't more svelt than the 21. One feature I miss from the regular is the filleted edges, they were far more comfortable than chamfers and I'd love to see them put back on the Sebenza. I wish the 25 was a medium length Sebenza with a .100" thick tall blade (made for slicing) and slightly thinner filleted scales. What I have in mind is a "melted" Sebenza without a sharp corner on it. I know h this sounds like awishlist knife, but I'm only trying to suggest possible changes to the Sebenza design that would not add to it or draw it closer to the Zaan.

 

[Haze]

There are less parts to the pivot amd knives now making them more "simplistic" so I would say, yes, there at least. The pivot and other hardwear is now used on 3 of their knives and so streamlining production, that is an improvment to any production line. The ceramic ball lock set up has proved its self to be woth while and is used on two folders so that would have to be seen as an improvement over the standard Titanium lock face. The changes and features made when brining the 25 to the market were in response to cutomer and end user observations and requests as well as product research done my CRK, that again should be seen as improving the design. As a product engineer you should really be able to see and understand where things have gone and why with this knife better than most.

 

[Officer's Match]

Pretty much agree with what Haze just posted. Must admit I do like that my Starbenza doesn't need locktite, but I can live with that if all else is an improvement.

 

[Macchina]

Ah Haze, but that's just my point. You say the new features on the 25 are "better" but I believe you are using "better" to mean "stronger". I don't argue that the 25 is most likely a stronger knife, but I do argue that the additions move the knife away from the design philosophy that we have come to know the Sebenza for. If Sebenza 21's don't fail, then how is a stronger knife better? Also, less parts in a pivot does not necessarily make it a more simple design. simplicity also must be reflected in use and in maintenance. The bushing system is the epitome of simple use (always smooth) and simple maintainance (only one way to set it: tight and perfect).

I design mechanism in the USA for a living. There is a science to making a mechanism just strong enough (a stronger mechanism is made from more steel/manufacturing processes and therefore must either have less features or be made in China to be priced competitively). Our company also has designers in Europe who have a much different view on mechs than us. In Europe the philosophy is if a mech fails at one cycle past the test standards then it was perfectly designed. In the USA, we get complaints when our (much stronger/heavier mechs than Europe) fail at JUST 200,000 cycles past the standard.

There is a customer-driven desire in the USA to have everything as strong as possible, no matter if this strength hurts other attributes (price, size, weight, form, even function). Look at the release of the H2: they were very popular when they came out because people wanted the appearance of a hardcore vehicle. When everyone realized that they didn't need 8,000 pound gas-guzzling behemoths to go to the mall they fell out of favor and the crossover SUV was born. Now the 25 is no Hummer, but material was definitely added back into a design that is will known to already be stronger than needed.

It's important to establish design goals before any preliminary design is begun otherwise it's very easy to just over-build a device. This pleases many people even if it loses sight of the original reason for the redesign. I feel up until the 25, the Sebenza has been about being "just right".

It's obvious CRK's customers like the knife because they're selling like hotcakes. My problem is not with the design of the 25 itself, it's that CRK seems to be taking the Sebenza design down an overbuilt design path and I feel that conflicts with and detracts from the original design intent and use of the Sebenza. I'd see it as a much smarter move if the 25 was called the "Dressy Zaan" and the next Sebenza stuck closer to the already refined design of the Sebenza line.

 

[MostMenAreRuthless]

There is book learning--which is considered "knowledge." Then there is application of the knowledge--which is now "wisdom." Go buy a 25, use it, hold it, love it, analyze it in person, and gain wisdom on the 25. In the end, if it is too "overbuilt" for you, you can sell it at a minimal loss of dollars on the exchange.

I understand what your theories are, but in practice they are largely irrelevant. The 25 carries like a 21, is maintained nearly exactly like a 21, has almost the exact number of individual parts as a 21 (fifteen individual parts on a 25 as compared to seventeen on a 21--if I am counting right!), and they slice, cut, chop, and work in almost an identical manner. The 25 utilizes the ceramic ball interface which all but eliminates any necessary discussion of lock face wear/tang wear, etc--although this may also be a somewhat moot point in that my Regs, P, and 21's lock faces have little to no wear on them anyway.

In my experience, the 25 is every bit as sleek, refined, and beautiful as the 21. In my opinion, I wouldn't call it supremely better than the 21, but it does have technological advancements that make it pretty cool. In the end, it is a knife and it cuts stuff.

 

[Haze]

I'm saying nothing other that simply, IMO, the knife is "better" for the simple reason that were outlined. You can make of that what you will and it seems you have....

 

[Macchina]

I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy it for what it is if (when) I get one. I do plan on getting I've eventually. I am merely lementing about the design path the 25 seems to have taken the Sebenza on. I want that medium-sized thin and smooth Sebenza, but the 25 has gone in the opposite direction.

 

[Macchina]

I'm saying nothing other that simply, IMO, the knife is "better" for the simple reason that were outlined. You can make of that what you will and it seems you have....

The reason we're both right (but I'm a little more right) is because we approach the question of what a Sebenza is from different viewpoints. It's like how any political argument is impossible to win because both sides approach the same issue from different starting points. I don't disagree that the 25 has very cool features, and I think the knife has a place in CRK's lineup however I wish that place was outside of the Sebenza lineup so it did not detract from the slimmer and simpler design of the older Sebenzas.

It appears the new design path of the Sebenza matches what you want, therefore you are right when you say that stronger features are better.
I'm disappointed because the 25 has become more massive than it's predecessors and is therefore not in line with what I think the Sebenza was originally designed for and therefore I'm right when I say that the 25 is a step back in the Sebenza line.

This is a thread of opinions on what the Sebenza is and should/could become. Fortunately the only opinion (Chris Reeve's) that matters is a very good opinion.

 

[Blues]

I think you're going to have to bite the bullet and buy one...and then pass it around to several of us so that we can render judgment on your theory.

I'll be happy to send it to or receive it from Haze when you're ready to begin the testing.

 

[Haze]

The reason we're both right (but I'm a little more right) because we approach the question of what a Sebenza is from different viewpoints. I don't disagree that the 25 has very cool features. It appears the design path of the Sebenza matches what you want, I'm disappointed because it does not fall in line with what I think the Sebenza was originally designed for...

You're brimming full of assumptions here but should understand that I personally prefer the Regular Sebenza over any of the Sebenzas. I respect, understand and agree with the direction CRK have taken the 25. Knife users and expectations of knife use has changed or "evolved" and even an old school stick in the mud like me can accept that, you probably just need to accept the facts of the matter here, too.

I think you're going to have to bite the bullet and buy one...and then pass it around to several of us so that we can render judgment on your theory.

I'll be happy to send it to or receive it from Haze when you're ready to begin the testing.

That sounds good to me, mate. :thumbup:

 

[AddictedToGear]

Very good comparison. I do not own a CRK yet, but I definitely want to get a 21 and a Zaan as my first two. The 21 just seems like.what I imagine in a CRK. I know gentlemens folder has many definitions at least that is what I think it depends on who you are. I like a lot of modern "tactical folders" or just modern knives so I see a 21 as a gentlemens knife or elegant knife is some designs. It gives me the feel of a very usuable well built knife and it is something about its thinness and simplicity.

 

[bart1]

I can see we all agree that we like CRK's and thank goodness there's Chocolate, Vanilla, Rocky Road, etc..... I think I'll look for another cone now,,,,, Bart

 

[bart1]

PS. I have them all ..25, Classics, Zaan, Ti, Mnandi, etc, . sometimes you feel like a nut..... sometimes you don't! Bart

 

[Haze]

Reading this again, even with your edit, I'll have to add that I have said no such thing and actually said I prefer the old Sebenza if you try reading what I have posted. You seem to just be hearing what you want to here and have a "set course" for this thread. I'll leave you to it....

The reason we're both right (but I'm a little more right) is because we approach the question of what a Sebenza is from different viewpoints. It's like how any political argument is impossible to win because both sides approach the same issue from different starting points. I don't disagree that the 25 has very cool features, and I think the knife has a place in CRK's lineup however I wish that place was outside of the Sebenza lineup so it did not detract from the slimmer and simpler design of the older Sebenzas.

It appears the new design path of the Sebenza matches what you want, therefore you are right when you say that stronger features are better.
I'm disappointed because the 25 has become more massive than it's predecessors and is therefore not in line with what I think the Sebenza was originally designed for and therefore I'm right when I say that the 25 is a step back in the Sebenza line.

This is a thread of opinions on what the Sebenza is and should/could become. Fortunately the only opinion (Chris Reeve's) that matters is a very good opinion.

 

[Franz_N]

I think the 25 is a better knife than the 21 personally and i really like the 21. It's more robust and cuts just as well or better, seems to hold an edge better too. I'm convinced the detent ball is a better design, disengages smoother and easier. I found myself taking apart 21's pretty frequently because the action would get gritty or rough, and i'm not talking one knife i mean several, with a Umnumzaan or 25 maintenance was much less frequent, as cool as the bushing is i think it requires more maintenance. Sandwiched handle scales on a blade actually sounds more simpler than a pivot bushing if you want to talk about simplicity.

I never had any issues when i did not use loctite on Umnumzaan's or a 25, everything stayed in place just fine. I like them all though and i think the 21 looks prettier, but strictly as a knife tool i think the 25 is the best CRK has made so far.

 

[Locutus D'Borg]

It is simple, not simplistic. These words mean entirely different things.

As to the knife, I have only seen the 25, but trust Chris Reeve to know what he is doing.