The 25 seems to add complexity to the simplistic 21 without adding function.

It's easy, to me the fact the sebenza21 does not need locktite is reason enough to not buy a sebenza25. Simplicity is good.

In general I hate finger grooves; why anyone would think one set of grooves would fit everybody is beyond me. Second reason to not buy the sebenza25.

There is only two things I'd change for the sebenza21, dual thumb lugs as standard and provide the grease with the knife (already been done now.)
 
I now have a 25 to directly observe. The finger grooves do feel really good. Still not crazy about their aesthetics, but they certainly function well enough for my paws. I think the blade shape is a great happy medium - not as "pointy" as my 21 (large starbenza), not as much belly as my Umnumzaan - somewhere in between. Looks to be robust and very well made - no surprise there. My initial impression is if I had to sell it or my Zaan, the 25 wouldn't be staying. That said, it is very nice.
 
MostMenAreRuthless said:
There is book learning--which is considered "knowledge." Then there is application of the knowledge--which is now "wisdom." Go buy a 25, use it, hold it, love it, analyze it in person, and gain wisdom on the 25. In the end, if it is too "overbuilt" for you, you can sell it at a minimal loss of dollars on the exchange.

I understand what your theories are, but in practice they are largely irrelevant. The 25 carries like a 21, is maintained nearly exactly like a 21, has almost the exact number of individual parts as a 21 (fifteen individual parts on a 25 as compared to seventeen on a 21--if I am counting right!), and they slice, cut, chop, and work in almost an identical manner. The 25 utilizes the ceramic ball interface which all but eliminates any necessary discussion of lock face wear/tang wear, etc--although this may also be a somewhat moot point in that my Regs, P, and 21's lock faces have little to no wear on them anyway.

In my experience, the 25 is every bit as sleek, refined, and beautiful as the 21. In my opinion, I wouldn't call it supremely better than the 21, but it does have technological advancements that make it pretty cool. In the end, it is a knife and it cuts stuff.
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Very well said.
 
Macchina said:
I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy it for what it is if (when) I get one. I do plan on getting I've eventually. I am merely lementing about the design path the 25 seems to have taken the Sebenza on. I want that medium-sized thin and smooth Sebenza, but the 25 has gone in the opposite direction.
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If you have these reservations, why do you plan on buying one at some point? :confused: As for the thiness and smoothness between the two, I can't really tell much of a difference. The 25 is not the overbuilt behemoth you're making it out to be. In truth, it's very similar to the 21 in this regard. The biggest differences to me are the grind of the blade, the jimping and the finger grooves. In the hand, it feels very compact and ergonomic and with a good edge, it cuts like hell. For whatever reason, I think the 25 holds a better edge than the 21.

It's hard for me to imagine a folder being much better than the 25. I've said this before here and been rebuked for it. I stand by my opinion as someone who owns both, loves both and plans on buying more of each (if the 25 is released in different variations). As I write this, my plain large Sebenza 21 is clipped comfortably in my pocket.
 
brownshoe said:
It's easy, to me the fact the sebenza21 does not need locktite is reason enough to not buy a sebenza25. Simplicity is good.

In general I hate finger grooves; why anyone would think one set of grooves would fit everybody is beyond me. Second reason to not buy the sebenza25.

There is only two things I'd change for the sebenza21, dual thumb lugs as standard and provide the grease with the knife (already been done now.)
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:thumbup:
 
I'll buy a small 25 if they ever make one.

No design is ever above improvement. The 25 improves upon the 21.
 
bearcut said:
I'll buy a small 25 if they ever make one.

No design is ever above improvement. The 25 improves upon the 21.
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Haven't had my 25 long enough to really say for sure, but so far I don't see it as an improvement so much as just a different offering. I do like the blade shape and the lack of reference hole in the scale, but prefer the 21's lack of finger grooves as well as need for locktite, and do prefer the one allen wrench size for all fasteners of the 21.
 
FW JSB said:
If you have these reservations, why do you plan on buying one at some point? :confused:
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I'm not disappointed I'm the 25 as a knife, but as the next succession in the Sebenza line. I liked a lot of freesia in my Zaan and I think the 25 is a better looking knife than the Zaan. After owning a few previous versions of the Sebenza I'm sad to see CRK "give in" to the over-robust knife fad by making these changes that are the biggest since the original Sebenza was released. It is not the 25 in itself that I'm sad to see, it's the correction it appears the Sebenza line is headed in.

Also, I really was hoping we'd see a radius-edge handled Sebenza again. If you really are using a knife for hard work, a radiused edge feels far better than a chamfered one. I really liked that aspect of the Regular and Bradley Alias.
 
FW JSB said:
If you have these reservations, why do you plan on buying one at some point? :confused:
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I'm not disappointed I'm the 25 as a knife, but as the next succession in the Sebenza line. I liked a lot of features in my Zaan and I think the 25 is a better looking knife than the Zaan. After owning a few previous versions of the Sebenza I'm sad to see CRK "give in" to the over-robust knife fad by making these changes that are the biggest since the original Sebenza was released. Don't get me wrong, I like a strong knife and I think the 25 executes that property very well; however I feel every Sebenza I ever had was far stronger than it needed to be so it would be cool to see the next version improve on other aspects (handle comfort, slicing ability, weight, new materials, etc). No matter which way you slice it, the thicker a blade gets (all else being equal) the worse it cuts (cutting: the sole function of a knife lest we forget). It is not the 25 in itself that I'm sad to see, it's the direction it appears the Sebenza line is headed in. There are many benefits to the new pivot on the 25 but it's removal of the bushing and addition of different fasteners seems like a really odd thing to do to two Sebenza trademarks that have been there from the start. The 25 really feels like it belongs in the Zaan lineup (allowing a more Sebenzay Sebemza to be the 25) than as some kind of Zaan/Sebenza Hybrid.

Also, I really was hoping we'd see a radius-edge handled Sebenza again. If you really are using a knife for hard work, a radiused edge feels far better than a chamfered one. I really liked that aspect of the Regular and Bradley Alias.
 
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I love my Zan, I don't regret purchasing it, nor has it let me down, but I have to admit I love the simplicity for the user to never to have to worry about pivot bolt tension of the 21. I haven't had mine loosen, and honestly I rarely have to mess with any of my knives that are built that way once I locktite them and set them.

It's the idea of the level of tolerance and fit an finish to pull that off that I appreciate, and it's one of the reasons I pay the higher prices for a knife with the same blade steel as those costing half the price. A hand built Ferrari or Rolex isn't efficient from a production standpoint, and there are lots of cheaper options that are just as fast, and tell time just as well, even better, but it's exactly why customers pay that much for them.

I can understand that it's more efficient from a production standpoint to go away from these features, and that all knife makers have to evolve and improve/change designs to keep current in the market, keep up with demand, and keep prices competitive, but to me those type of features is what set the Sebenza apart.
 
Macchina said:
I'm saying the Sebenza (in the form of the 21) was already an extremely evolved design and may not be able to be improved at all without changing what the original design goal was.
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I design software, not knives, but I can't help but see merit in this. I don't know that the 21 can't be improved, but the 25 appears to have had different goals. The 25 (as with the Umnumzaan) seems to be CR's thoughtful response to market trends. Thicker stock, almost FFG, trading increased pivot robustness for the bushing.

There's no reason that a knife named "work" shouldn't evolve into a more robust folder over time, but it doesn't appear to me to be the same goal Chris Reeve set himself when he designed the 21. When he designed the 21, he could have made the 25. With the exception of the ceramic lock-bar end, all of the design features of the 25 were known technology: finger grooves, stock thickness, flatter grind, larger & sharper gimping, standard (but large) pivot. He chose not to use 25-like features when he made the 21 in the first place. When he made the 25, he chose differently. Like you, I see these as solutions to two different problems he set himself.

I own both, and enjoy both for what they are. But as a designer, it's hard to grab the 25 and not think that it was an answer to a different question than a 21.
 
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And I suppose it's human nature to always want more. I personally would have a hard time thinking of a more perfect knife for my wants/needs than the following: a 21 with the 25's ceramic lockup, blade shape (grind could be either as I LOVE CRK's hollow grind) without the reference hole but with the 21's thru-hole lanyard pin.
 
You sound as if you think the 21 is being replaced by the 25. I don't think that's the case, but rather another option for those who may like the features of the 25. I sure hope I'm right about that :p

I prefer the Regulars/ Classics/ 21's myself, and sure hope what does replace the 21 one day will have the same pivot bushing system, same .125 blade stock, and a handle without the extra finger groove.
 
.02 cents, and not a penny more here. My 25 was uncomfortable at the choil where the lockbar and frame met. Sharp edges there. The 25 "felt" sturdier than my Starbenza 21, but my confidence is higher with my 21. No worries of a pivot loosening, or what will happen when the 25 is disassembled for cleaning(an entirely different thread). I have confidence and faith in CRK's production and design processes, but I do believe improving on the regular was hard enough, and the 21 was somewhat successful. The 25, IMHO is not an improvement. It's just different. Better or an improvement is left up to the owner/end user. I've yet to see anyone provide visual evidence of them honestly wearing out the lockface and having overtravel of a regular or 21. And the Sebenza has always been known for it's hydraulic like smoothness, so how can the ceramic ball/detent be considered better? If anything, it's hardness and ability to deform the steel on the lockface seems detrimental to me. My 25 is gone now and the Starbenza is a regular carry. Anyway, .02 cents.
 
I had a 25, but only briefly and then sold it. Tried it; didn't like it. I prefer the Classic and Regular design...with the thinner blade. I have a Zaan if I need heavier-duty. The 25 is a fine knife, but everyone has favorites... It's nice to have choices.
Sonnydaze
 
Finedges said:
.02 cents, and not a penny more here. My 25 was uncomfortable at the choil where the lockbar and frame met. Sharp edges there. The 25 "felt" sturdier than my Starbenza 21, but my confidence is higher with my 21. No worries of a pivot loosening, or what will happen when the 25 is disassembled for cleaning(an entirely different thread). I have confidence and faith in CRK's production and design processes, but I do believe improving on the regular was hard enough, and the 21 was somewhat successful. The 25, IMHO is not an improvement. It's just different. Better or an improvement is left up to the owner/end user. I've yet to see anyone provide visual evidence of them honestly wearing out the lockface and having overtravel of a regular or 21. And the Sebenza has always been known for it's hydraulic like smoothness, so how can the ceramic ball/detent be considered better? If anything, it's hardness and ability to deform the steel on the lockface seems detrimental to me. My 25 is gone now and the Starbenza is a regular carry. Anyway, .02 cents.
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Funny, my 21 is a Large Starbenza too. Gonna' take a while to decide which I ultimately prefer between it and the 25 - both take second to my Umnumzaan.
 
I don't know if it has been mentioned but the current 25 is actual screw together construction. No more female ends to screw into. Another first for CRK?
 
well, after about 10 days with my 25, i am having too much trouble opening the lock to close the knife. i like so much about it, but i find that the utility and useability comes first, and it doesn't quite work for me. i love LOVE the blade, the feel, the handle, the robustness, the lockup, but, the fact that the exposed portion of the lock is too small for me is a deal breaker. i am going to sell it or hopefully trade it for a large micarta Insingo. i love the design of the 21 and think the Insingo blade shape is pretty phenomenal. oh well. the 25 is a real step forward in many ways, but a step back in one way that does not work for me. cheers!
 
Been a few days, and I'm coming to the conclusion that I don't like the grip. If it didn't have the pronounced finger grooves, the knife would be a winner for me. However they ruin it for my hands. At first I liked them, but now I dislike the way they "restrict" my grip.
 
I love the 25 and am glad it was released. I think it's just another offering and doubt the 21 is going anywhere. It's a 21 on steroids.
Mine is a working blade and I find it easy to lock and unlock with or without gloves, in heat or cold. No hotspots for me with bare hands. Love the ceramic ball! I always felt like I had to "baby" the 21's lockbar as it could be finicky working around grit. Ceramic ball=problem solved.
I just wish it has a LBS on it like the Umnumzaan and maybe a thumbstud with less of a point to it.
 
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