Review The answer to types of steel for select old tools

[Brad McCoy]

Hi all. I am new to the group, but I have seen the same questions in many places. Everyone wondering what types of steel old tools are. They are obviously high carbon, but most have no idea what kind. I have done a lot of research to find some of the answers. Here are ones I have gotten so far.
Metal and wood chisels- o1 tool steel good for blades
Ball bearings- most will be 52100 if tough use, very durable for blades
Metal punches- also as the chisels, o1 tool steel
Railroad spikes- 1030, it is harmless, but doesn't hold an edge well
Old wood saw blades, and old wooden handle hatchet blades/hammer heads- 75cr1 tool steel
Files(if old and made in USA)- will normally be W1 or more commonly 1095. Nicholson and Simmonds are the best as being reliable, and all Nicholson files are made with 1095. Files made in Germany normally OK, but beware made in china, japan, etc. Best to stick with USA to be safe.
Large Hex Keys made in the USA that are old- 8650, which I honestly don't know much about. I was amazed it wasn't mild steel personally.
Razor blades- Carbide Steel, which is a stainless steel with a tungsten carbide compound added. It also in the USA can go by 13cr Martensitic, the European code is X46Cr13, it is 420C and has the highest carbon content of the SAE 420 series.
A toro riding lawnmower steering gear- SAE 1045(YES I know that's a strange one to know lol, but I had to change one out and with it size I tested it and it was high carbon so I researched it. Its crankshaft is also the same lol.)
These are all I have needed to look up so far. If you would like me to find out anything specific for you that you are having trouble finding, ask me and I'll do my best to find out. I just happen to be very good at research lol. I hope this thread can be helpful.

 

[Brad McCoy]

Also, old hedge clipper blades are o1 tool steel, or at least the ones I have I am going to make a blade with. Also, I would appreciate anyone giving knowledge on the same topic for expanding my knowledge based.

 

[john april]

i only use known steel, i would hate to put in all that effort and not be positively sure of what the steel type is to heat treat it correctly, and i would have to let the customer know as well

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Your list is a fairly good guess, but it is still just a guess. A few things can be researched with the manufacturer and the steel type determined, but that is a very seldom situation. Most items are made from many different metals even in the same company. The steel type may change from year to year. The 10XX steels are used for may things that you list as O-1. I would tend to doubt most hedge clippers are O-1, new or old. The only good thing about this is that most all the steels you list, or the ones that might be the actual alloys, will harden OK with a basic backyard HT.

Using found steel and spark testing it can give some idea if it is usable, but buying a kown steel is a far better choice. Decarb free 2"X.125" O-1 runs around $15 a foot.

 

[golfer1]

pluss 2 for Stacy, unless you are just practicing, going through all that effort to build a blade then now knowing what steel it is would leave a big question mark as to its ability to perform. There is really no savings there.

 

[kdnolin]

I only use known steel, but my two sons like the idea of taking a piece of junk and turning it into a functional tool. There is also added nostalgia if it was steel from grandpa’s old mower blade or file. So if they want to make a knife from junk, I won’t discourage making it, but selling would be a different story.

 

[John mc c]

I use salvaged tool steel to make punches,splitters,drifts and hardie tools for smithing,cant have enough of it
Not for knives tho

 

[DanF]

The guy who got me started in this madness gave me scrap metal to practice on. Told me not to waste good steel until I had an idea what I was doing. I still have 3 pieces of 5160 leaf spring he gave me. I just look at it and smile now, still trying to figure this out 20+ years later.

 

[Natlek]

Just note.......................steel used in knife industry in entire world in five years is probably half hour work only in Krupp AG
So please don t use that words scarp metal ,unknown steel........ good steel ,ANY steel can be found , if you know where and for what to look ..............

World crude steel production for the 64 countries reporting to the World Steel Association (worldsteel) was 156.4 million tonnes (Mt) in September 2020[/QUOTE]

 

[DanF]

Scrap steel- noun- descriptive.
Steel becomes scrap when it is no longer suited for it’s intended, original purpose.
Just because you (Natlek), don’t mind making knives from repurposed steel doesn’t mean the rest of the world should follow suit, particularly knife makers who care about the quality of the product they are selling and their reputation as a knife maker.
You don’t have a clue what that repurposed steel has gone through over it’s life as whatever it was intended to be and you certainly can’t see microscopic cracks and any stress that is present after years of use.
Use what you want, but don’t try to dictate to others what they should use, or what they should or should not call it.
Scrap steel is found in scrap yards and junk yards, not the second hand, almost like new used wonder steel store.

 

[Natlek]

Scrap steel- noun- descriptive.
Steel becomes scrap when it is no longer suited for it’s intended, original purpose.
Just because you (Natlek), don’t mind making knives from repurposed steel doesn’t mean the rest of the world should follow suit, particularly knife makers who care about the quality of the product they are selling and their reputation as a knife maker.
You don’t have a clue what that repurposed steel has gone through over it’s life as whatever it was intended to be and you certainly can’t see microscopic cracks and any stress that is present after years of use.
Use what you want, but don’t try to dictate to others what they should use, or what they should or should not call it.
Scrap steel is found in scrap yards and junk yards, not the second hand, almost like new used wonder steel store.

IT must be my bad English..................Look , wood industry ,paper industry , tobacco industry , food industry ,plastic industry , granite industry , steel industry ...etc , ALL use some kind of steel to cut things .Some use carbons steel some use high alloy steel some use stainless steel .Common to all is that everyone uses best quality steel for their purpose . Would you call scrap steel old circular saw for wood ? Would you call scrap steel circular HSS saw ? Would you call scarp steel blade from tobacco industry ? Would you call old NSK , KOYO , SKF, Timken ball bearing scarp steel ?
So far I make maybe more then 50 machete from 75Cr1 steel .ALl are used hard and none one has broken so far from micro cracks.Lot of machete i make from used 15N20 steel ,same thing .So please don t try to sell that story to me at least......... about microscopic cracks i can t see

 

[DanF]

Deleted, not worth the effort.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I did the same, Dan. Not worth arguing the point.

What I will say has been said many times:
The issue isn't scrap steel. it is UNKNOWN steel. If you don't know the exact alloy, it is unknown steel. It doesn't matter if is a pristine bar of unmarked steel from Aldo - If you don't know the alloy it is a problem. If it is a piece of steel from a used tool you may have a guess, but that is just it ... a guess.

I have several bars of steel in the shop that I will use for welding a brace or some other structural use, but not for making a knife. That is because the markings wore off, or I forgot to remark them when I cut a piece off the bar. It is now unknown steel.

 

[Natlek]

Ball bearing steel is unknown steel ????? Steel cable for damaskus is unknown steel ?ALL reputable brand declare from which steel are their saw for wood .....HSS saw is unknown steel ???? Really ????? Show me one without mark which steel is used! Planer blade are unknown steel ? Really ? ALL saw for cutting granite/diamond / from reputable brand are made from 75Cr1 steel, at least here in Europe .If you make search or ask on right place you will get answer on any question .........
BUT as you say , not worth arguing the point , carry on

 

[TheEdge01]

I don’t see a problem with using scrap steel to make knives, I have a small collection of it myself. I have also noticed that some people prefer buying knives made from scrap/repurposed steel. However, if the knife is being sold, it needs to be correctly labeled. I have seen people refer to leaf springs as 5160 spring steel when they really didn’t know without sending the steel off to be tested. If I forged a knife from a railroad anchor, that is how I should label the knife to a customer, not the type of steel I think or hope it is made from.

 

[weo]

not worth arguing the point , carry on

So instead of arguing with each other, could we try to better understand each other instead?

IT must be my bad English.......

That could be part of it, but even within a single language the opportunities for misunderstanding are endless.

Not that anyone asked, and I apologize for my ego and assuming that I'm adding anything, but I don't like thinking I didn't try.

The issue isn't scrap steel. it is UNKNOWN steel.

To me, this sums it up, at least here in the US.

Ball bearing steel is unknown steel ?

Maybe, maybe not. In the US, where maximizing one's profit is held above everything else, every time a cheaper alternative that has the same required properties (physical/chemical, etc) becomes available for the manufacturer, they can change steels without any requirement to inform the end user. And for the same profit reason, said manufacturer has an incentive NOT to disclose this information so that they can maintain an advantage over their competitors.

Show me one without mark which steel is used. . .If you make search or ask on right place you will get answer on any question ..

Much of the scrap here in the US doesn't have marks, and/or there is no easy way to get the information needed.

ALL saw for cutting granite/diamond / from reputable brand are made from 75Cr1 steel, at least here in Europe .

If true, you should consider yourself as lucky to be able to used cheaper scrap steel instead of having to buy new bars to be sure you know the alloy you are working with.

I believe that the posts countering your opinion, Natlek, are not directed towards you, your knives, or your abilities, but rather the first time knife maker here in the US who might only read your post, then try to make a knife with a random saw, using the parameters for 75Cr1, fail because the steel wasn't 75Cr1, then walk away and tell their friends that this site is worthless and full of bad information.

Stay safe all.

 

[Natlek]

So instead of arguing with each other, could we try to better understand each other instead?

That could be part of it, but even within a single language the opportunities for misunderstanding are endless.

Not that anyone asked, and I apologize for my ego and assuming that I'm adding anything, but I don't like thinking I didn't try.

To me, this sums it up, at least here in the US.

Maybe, maybe not. In the US, where maximizing one's profit is held above everything else, every time a cheaper alternative that has the same required properties becomes available for the manufacturer, the can switch without any requirement to inform the end user. And for the same profit reason, said manufacturer has an incentive NOT to disclose this information so that they can maintain an advantage over their competitors.

Much of the scrap here in the US doesn't have marks, or there is no easy way to get the information needed.

If true, you should consider yourself as lucky to be able to used cheaper scrap steel instead of having to buy new bars to be sure you know the alloy you are working with.

I believe that the posts countering your opinion, Natlek, are not directed towards you, your knives, or your abilities, but rather the first time knife maker here in the US who might only read your post, then try to make a knife with a saw using the parameters for 75Cr1, fail because the steel wasn't 75Cr1, then walk away and tell their friends that this site is worthless and full of bad information.

Stay safe all.

Look , I don't force anyone to use scrap unknown steel .What if you know which steel you found. Would you use it ? That was my point .How many different steel you know purposely made for knife industry? How many ?
My point is that almost all steel are produced with specific composition for some purpose.Don t even think that some / reputable name brand/use better steel then other for same purpose . Million of tons of steel are produced each year and all that steel is used somewhere ..........knife industry is last one with the amount used . Trick is to find which one steel where and for what was made and for what is used .I can answer you any question about used steel in car you drive , for any part of that car !It is common , ordinary steel with different characteristic , that is it ....nothing mystical .
This is Japan made high speed ball bearing for CNC spindle , they go in pair and they are quite expensive.. i make several knife from them and honestly they are better then knives i make from 52100 steel i bought from Germany. I have no proof for that , only what i can see and test ..i have even open topic about that somewhere ....There was many steel mill in world , i doubt that NTN ,Koyo,NSK ,SKF use steel for bearing from some small mill in middle of nowhere .They use most clean steel produced from reputable source .........If you visit site of say NSK ....you can find data which steel for what kind of bearing they use ...

 

[Natlek]

So instead of arguing with each other, could we try to better understand each other instead?

That could be part of it, but even within a single language the opportunities for misunderstanding are endless.

Not that anyone asked, and I apologize for my ego and assuming that I'm adding anything, but I don't like thinking I didn't try.

To me, this sums it up, at least here in the US.

Maybe, maybe not. In the US, where maximizing one's profit is held above everything else, every time a cheaper alternative that has the same required properties becomes available for the manufacturer, the can switch without any requirement to inform the end user. And for the same profit reason, said manufacturer has an incentive NOT to disclose this information so that they can maintain an advantage over their competitors.

Much of the scrap here in the US doesn't have marks, or there is no easy way to get the information needed.

If true, you should consider yourself as lucky to be able to used cheaper scrap steel instead of having to buy new bars to be sure you know the alloy you are working with.

I believe that the posts countering your opinion, Natlek, are not directed towards you, your knives, or your abilities, but rather the first time knife maker here in the US who might only read your post, then try to make a knife with a saw using the parameters for 75Cr1, fail because the steel wasn't 75Cr1, then walk away and tell their friends that this site is worthless and full of bad information.

Stay safe all.

This is cable damascus i think ...would you say that it is made from scrap unknown steel and don t worth ?

https://bladeforums.com/threads/invest-in-a-covington-forged-bowie.1760808/

 

[weo]

*sigh*...still trying....
I'll start this post off by saying that I sincerely apologize, Natlek, if I am the one not understanding.

Look , I don't force anyone to use scrap unknown steel .

That's understood, and I was trying to indicate my understanding with:

I believe that the posts countering your opinion, Natlek, are not directed towards you, your knives, or your abilities, but rather the first time knife maker here in the US who might read only your post, then try to make a knife with a saw using the parameters for 75Cr1, fail because the steel wasn't 75Cr1, then walk away and tell their friends that this site is worthless and full of bad information.

What if you know which steel you found. Would you use it ?

The only answer I can give is, "That depends." And to me, what it depends on is who the end user is. If it were someone that I knew well enough to know they wouldn't try to sue me for all that I have in the event of any sort of failure, then yes. If it were a random customer who I don't know as well, then no. And the reason being, the number of lawyers here in the US. I'm not sure what the situation in Croatia is, but here in the US, the legal system isn't as just or fair as most Americans would like to believe. And a good enough lawyer would not have much trouble convincing a jury that, if personal harm happened because a knife made from a questionable steel broke, the fault was with the maker and not the user. Even if I were 100% sure that I used the correct HT parameters, without the documentation to prove it, I would be guilty of "Recklessly causing serious physical injury to another by means of a deadly or dangerous weapon under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life." which is the legal definition of Felony Assault here in Oregon (how I know this is another discussion).

I can answer you any question about used steel in car you drive , for any part of that car !

While I can't prove that (You will never know as much as I know about what I know. And I will never know as much as you know about what you know.), I sincerely doubt that. Again, I refer you to my above post:

Maybe, maybe not. In the US, where maximizing one's profit is held above everything else, every time a cheaper alternative that has the same required properties (physical/chemical, etc) becomes available for the manufacturer, the can switch without any requirement to inform the end user. And for the same profit reason, said manufacturer has an incentive NOT to disclose this information so that they can maintain an advantage over their competitors.

If you visit site of say NSK ....you can find data which steel for what kind of bearing they use ...

If true, then yes, the maker is not using an unknown steel and for legal defense purposes might be able to produce and adequate paper trail (documentation) to prove to the jury that they did everything correctly and the fault lies not with the maker. But let me assure you, this is usually not the case here in the US (see above)

and finally:

This is cable damascus i think ...would you say that it is made from scrap unknown steel and don t worth ?

I have no idea...but most likely. But I'm afraid this might be a translation/understanding thing, because I'm not sure what you're asking or where you're going with that post.

 

[Natlek]

*sigh*...still trying....
I'll start this post off by saying that I sincerely apologize, Natlek, if I am the one not understanding.



The only answer I can give is, "That depends." And to me, what it depends on is who the end user is. If it were someone that I knew well enough to know they wouldn't try to sue me for all that I have in the event of any sort of failure, then yes. If it were a random customer who I don't know as well, then no. And the reason being, the number of lawyers here in the US. I'm not sure what the situation in Croatia is, but here in the US, the legal system isn't as just or fair as most Americans would like to believe. And a good enough lawyer would not have much trouble convincing a jury that, if personal harm happened because a knife broke, the fault was with the maker and not the user. Even if I were 100% sure that I used the correct HT parameters, without the documentation to prove it, I would be guilty of "Recklessly causing serious physical injury to another by means of a deadly or dangerous weapon under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life." which is the legal definition of Felony Assault here in Oregon (how I know this is another discussion).

Now we come to the law............ I don t think that things go like you describe it .Not any documentation you have can prove that you use exactly that steel .Law has own way to determine that ....expert bureau / if that is right term in USA / will determine which steel is in question and why steel broken ....whether from overload / improper use / or from improper HT ....
About knife on picture ...if I'm right that it is cable damascus do you think that it is knife made from scrap steel and no good ? Or thousand knife out there made from very reputable custom knife makers from file ? Is it wrong , are these knives usable, are they are allowed to sell them ?