Review The answer to types of steel for select old tools

[weo]

I don t think that things go like you describe it

Unfortunately, you would be wrong here. I wish it wasn't so, but while the letter of the law here says "innocent until proven guilty", once you're accused, the reality is you are considered guilty until proven innocent. And yes, I am speaking from experience.

Law has own way to determine that ....expert bureau / if that is right term in USA / will determine which steel is in question and why steel broken ....whether from overload / improper use / or from improper HT ....

Are you getting your info from Hollywood movies and TV? This might be true if you have the financial resources to hire your own expert, but for the majority of us, we don't make enough money here for that type of justice. And I'm speaking from personal experience here, not with knives per se, but with how the legal system works.

About knife on picture ...

Perhaps this is a translation thing, but I really don't know what you're asking that's different and that will prompt a different response from me. I will offer no opinion because I know nothing about the knife, the maker or material.

I'm not sure if you have an interest in learning other folks reasons for their responses (which I feel I've made a good attempt at trying to convey) or if you are merely trying to antagonize me/us.

are they are allowed to sell them ?

Of course, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea for a new maker, which is what most of us are trying to get across to you.

 

[Natlek]

Hollywood movies So you have document that you purchase 10 foot 1095 steel . And with that document you can prove at court that knife which you already sell to someone is made exactly from that steel ? How in the name of good anyone can prove that ? How ? How you can prove that that steel is exactly made from that steel which you buy previously ? ONLY can be proved that steel from which knife is made is 1095 ........and that can prove only an authorized institution that has the necessary equipment !
So , reputable knife maker CAN sell knives made from scrap steel and I can t because I am new maker......i get it now
Now we are way off topic

 

[weo]

How in the name of good anyone can prove that ? How ?

Well, here's one of the good things about our system that still seems to work. In order for a guilty verdict, the prosecution has to prove "beyond reasonable doubt". What this means is that a knifemaker, using a known steel that's designed for knives and can answer questions in detail about their HT process, should be able to convince a judge or jury that they were doing things properly, again, "beyond reasonable doubt". Once you add a scrap/unknown steel, you are now adding some doubt into the equation that the prosecution will focus on. Even with known composition of the steel, depending on the quality of the lawyers, judge and jury, you might be found innocent, but if the prosecution does a better job than the defense, you might be found guilty, simply on the fact that "xxxx steel was designed for bearings and not knives", even though we all know it can work just as well.

Basically, it comes down to the amount of risk one is willing to take. And from a legal perspective, it's always better to err on the side of caution. (And now I think I'll relate a bit of my personal experience in this matter. I had an automobile accident where someone was seriously injured, that was caused by my losing consciousness from a previously undiagnosed seizure disorder. Even though the laws say that I can legally resume driving if I'm under the care of a doctor and am seizure-free for 6-12 months (depending on where you live), the reality is, if I were to have another accident where someone was injured, now that I know that I have a seizure disorder that could cause sudden loss of consciousness and I would be guilty of:

"Recklessly causing serious physical injury to another by means of a deadly or dangerous weapon (an automobile is a deadly or dangerous weapon? Apparently in the eyes of the law ) under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life."

because driving with the knowledge of an existing seizure disorder would qualify as "manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.")
And, IMO, selling a knife of "unknown steel" would also qualify as manifesting indifference to the value of human life.

Now we are way off topic

Not necessarily. Explaining the reasons for caution is always relevant. (I hope)
Thank you all for being patient.

 

[Drew Riley]

Well, on a positive note, I don't think there's much of a precedent of custom knife makers getting sued when a client gets cut by a knife (even due to failure). If that is a primary concern, however, I'd make sure to be selling knives through an LLC. I would still question whether or not the type of steel used would be much of a sticking point in a lawsuit though. Any steel can fail, even known steel that's been professionally heat treated. I am not a lawyer.

My main problem with using "scrap" or "found" steel, is that it's almost always a false economy. Sure, you found that old farrier's rasp in a bucket at a yard sale for $1. How much is a 12" long piece of cold rolled and annealed 10xx steel? $5 or $10? Is it worth saving $5 or $10 to burn up half of your drill bits, saw blades, cutoff wheels, grinder belts, files, etc... trying to cut and shape material that's already hardened? Maybe you're gonna anneal it. Ok, how many hours did that take? How much time did you spend wire wheeling the rust and scale off, or grinding out pits or other defects. How about that big arbor hole, bolt hole, or weld you have to work around. Fine, now your knife is ready for a proper heat treat. Is it O1 or 1095? Is it W1 or W2? Is it 15n20 or 8670? Is it 4140 or 1045? It doesn't really matter, the heat treat recipes are all within a couple hundred degrees of each other, and you're just using old motor oil to quench in anyway, right?

Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a cool factor in seeing a used up old tool turned into even a semi-functional knife or other type of art piece. Especially if it had some kind of sentimental value like it was grandpappy's old fingernail clipper, or a shell casing from WW1, or an toilet handle from an old bar bathroom you used to frequent. But 99x out of a 100, it's going to stilll cost more time, more effort, more consumables, and more of my sanity than a piece of known flat stock from a reputable dealer, and at the end of the day I'll STILL be guessing at the heat treat. Most customers would gladly pay the difference for known steel anyway.

I'm always very skeptical of the old tales about that knife that was made from an old (insert obscure tool here), was heat treated in (insert crazy back yard heat treat set up here) and quenched in (pick whatever old fluid you had next to the shop garbage can here) and not only cut through a piece of 1/2 re-bar, but dressed 6 deer, 2 hogs, framed a log cabin, and still shaved Aunt Bertha's mustache cleaner than a newborn baby's bottom, before needing a minor strop on your shirt sleeve to bring back to new.

 

[DanF]

Well, on a positive note, I don't think there's much of a precedent of custom knife makers getting sued when a client gets cut by a knife (even due to failure). If that is a primary concern, however, I'd make sure to be selling knives through an LLC. I would still question whether or not the type of steel used would be much of a sticking point in a lawsuit though. Any steel can fail, even known steel that's been professionally heat treated. I am not a lawyer.

My main problem with using "scrap" or "found" steel, is that it's almost always a false economy. Sure, you found that old farrier's rasp in a bucket at a yard sale for $1. How much is a 12" long piece of cold rolled and annealed 10xx steel? $5 or $10? Is it work saving $5 or $10 to burn up half of your drill bits, saw blades, cutoff wheels, grinder belts, files, etc... trying to cut and shape material that's already hardened? Maybe you're gonna anneal it. Ok, how many hours did that take? How much time did you spend wire wheeling the rust and scale off, or grinding out pits or other defects. How about that big arbor hole, bolt hole, or weld you have to work around. Fine, now your knife is ready for a proper heat treat. Is it O1 or 1095? Is it W1 or W2? Is it 15n20 or 8670? Is it 4140 or 1045? It doesn't really matter, the heat treat recipes are all within a couple hundred degrees of each other, and you're just using old motor oil to quench in anyway, right?

Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a cool factor in seeing a used up old tool turned into even a semi-functional knife or other type of art piece. Especially if it had some kind of sentimental value like it was grandpappy's old fingernail clipper, or a shell casing from WW1, or an toilet handle from an old bar bathroom you used to frequent. But 99x out of a 100, it's going to stilll cost more time, more effort, more consumables, and more of my sanity than a piece of known flat stock from a reputable dealer, and at the end of the day I'll STILL be guessing at the heat treat. Most customers would gladly pay the difference for known steel anyway.

I'm always very skeptical of the old tales about that knife that was made from an old (insert obscure tool here), was heat treated in (insert crazy back yard heat treat set up here) and quenched in (pick whatever old fluid you had next to the shop garbage can here) and not only cut through a piece of 1/2 re-bar, but dressed 6 deer, 2 hogs, framed a log cabin, and still shaved Aunt Bertha's mustache cleaner than a newborn baby's bottom, before needing a minor strop on your shirt sleeve to bring back to new.

PREACH!

(means keep telling it, or words to that effect)

 

[weo]

Well, on a positive note, I don't think there's much of a precedent of custom knife makers getting sued when a client gets cut by a knife (even due to failure).

Very true. But I wouldn't want to be the one setting the precedent.

 

[Ken H>]

but here in the US, the legal system isn't as just or fair as most Americans would like to believe

That's why it's called a "legal" system, not a "justice" system.

 

[Cushing H.]

It’s even worse for civil litigation. The standard there LOWER than the “reasonable doubt” level weo cites for criminal cases. There, it is “a preponderance of the evidence” (ie some counter evidence and some doubt is allowed).

the GOOD news is that in civil cases the lawyer gets a cut of the winnings ... and if you don’t have a lot of money, there is little incentive for a lawyer to take the case against you. Also why an LLC is a good idea: if the company does not have a lot of cash, there is nothing for the lawyer to grab ... no incentive.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I am married to a lawyer and my long time best friend is one. In many situations, an LLC will not protect a person like most folks think. They just sue the company and you as joint parties. If you are the sole owner and operator, it is even less protection.

Here is a reference that applies to the current discussion:

How Can You Be Personally Liable as a Member of an LLC?
If you follow the LLC guidelines, you can usually avoid personal liability. However, you could be personally liable for claims against the LLC under these circumstances:

• You Are Negligent. This includes being at fault in a car accident while using a company van or your own car for business purposes. You're liable for the damages you caused to people and property, even if the accident happened during a business activity.
• You Commit a Reckless or Illegal Act. If you act on behalf of the LLC while committing a reckless or illegal act, you could be held personally liable.

 

[Cushing H.]

a couple other points to add to Stacy's is that
1) you need to run the LLC as a business. no intermingling of personal and business expenses. if you do that - they can hammer you personally (the legal term is "piercing the corporate veil".
2) part of running the LLC as a business is carrying appropriate insurance - typically General Liability, and what is called "errors and omissions" insurance. That will help protect you against most of the stuff that Stacy mentions above.

In running my LLC, I have on a couple occasions cancelled (rather lucrative) contracts because they were asking me to do something that exposed me to some of the stuff stacy mentioned. you DO have to be careful and know the "rules"....

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Yes, business insurance is what most LLCs use to add to the layer of protection. But, we smal, potatoes knifemakers are hardly in the income range or exposure to worry about any of the situations being discussed here. I believer it has been researched and there is no case where a knifemaker was sued because a user cut himself with it. I personally don't know of any knifemaker being sued for a broken knife either. Mater of fact, except copyrite and suce issues, I don't recall any small time makers being sued.

As said earlier, no lawyer in his right mind would take a case like we are talking about.

 

[FredyCro]

I am off topic, but there was also a huge amount of misinformation on IP law here. I will try to find time to write something up and link some relevant information for everyone.

 

[Mattz1983]

This is cable damascus i think ...would you say that it is made from scrap unknown steel and don t worth ?

https://bladeforums.com/threads/invest-in-a-covington-forged-bowie.1760808/

Honestly, if sold as art it might be ok.... All of the knives I'm making and selling will be from a reputable steel source and professionally heat treated until I am confident that I can do the ht myself (since I dont have an oven yet thats big not yet!)

Is anyone else getting annoyed by damascus everything these days? Its sorta been "sold out" and feels tacky to me now. Feom my research good quality steel is as good if not better now, and "damascus" is just folded steel, not even damascus (woots type.)

Just a thought!

 

[Cushing H.]

Maybe. But it still looks just so cool!

 

[Diego_B]

Uhh to move to conversation away from the U.S. legal system I can add one more item to the list that I know 100% what it is (at least in my case)
Plain Sawmill blade without carbide tips- SKS51
A friend of mine happens to work at a sawmill around where I live and ended up bring me half of a saw blade they used at their mill to see if I could find out what it was and if I could use it. I did my own reasearch and came to the conclusion that it was 8670 made somewhere in Germany from what I could tell its a German steel and that 8670 is similar to L6 here in the U.S.. However in the end I decided to contact the sawmill and from the sawmill I contacted the Sawblade company and it was confirmed by them to me that it was not 8670 but SKS51 and they get it from Japan where they then make the actual sawblades somewhere in Georgia.(still have the email if you don't belive me). Anyhow I'm making two blades out of it and no I don't have a ht oven to do it in but to me part of bladesmithing is about the adventure of where the material comes from I just showed a knife to a friend I made from a leafspring and he just couldn't wrap his head around that it was made from that. Some people are willing to pay for stuff made from crowbars or lawnmower blades because it add character to that knife because it had a different form and purpose before or its just symbolic to them. Yes I agree 100% it is better to buy known steel especially when starting out, but I still go back to making knives from files, leafsprings, crowbars, and sawblades. Why? Cause its fun.