The "Back Cut", a Rose by Another Name

[Dave Fulton]

I think the quote goes "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." (please correct me if I've misquoted it).

Anyhow, I've heard all of this talk about James Keating's "Back Cut" and finally got a look at Keating's tape recently. I was watching and when he executed the first one I thought "Oh, a witik (a.k.a. abaniko)." I kept watching as Keating explained that a "Back Cut" is different than a Witik/Abaniko, and found myself thinking "No, it's a Witik."

The way I see it, the difference in the way Keating's "Back Cut" and the Witik/Abaniko are executed is the result of the weapon being used.

A stick has no sharpened edges, so the goal is to deliver a hard strike. This is something that can still be done if the orientation of your weapon is a little off. The need for proper weapon orientation, is less critical. Not unimportant, just less critical. However, if you're using a blade, edge orientation is absolutely critical since your goal is to cut. A great example of what happens if your edge isn't properly alligned with your stroke is seen in Marc "Animal" Mac Young's knife fighting tape.

It makes sense to me that as the FMA's became more stick oriented (and therefore less blade oriented), that techniques have necessarily been adapted to better fit the stick and certain details that apply only to a blade have fallen into disuse. The result is that instead of a Witik/Abanico executed with the intent of cutting with a sharpened top edge or deflecting with the spine (to prevent breaking the blade), we have a Witik/Abanico executed with the intent of delivering a hard strike or deflection with what would be the flat of the blade.

Now, I don't think I've stated anything beyond the obvious and can't understand all the rage about Keating's "Back Cut".

Comments?

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 06-12-2001).]

 

[Safety Guy]

Well, first of all, Dave, I believe old Bill "Shake-a-spear" said roses smelled "sweet," not "SWEAT." Yuck!

Then again, maybe you have a different variety of rose around your area.

As far as my comments on Keating's "back cut," I have always thought that it was simply the use of the bowie's swedge (methinks that's the term) to strike with instead of having to turn the blade over for primary edge use (in other words, double edged blades can "backcut" too, while most single edged blades can only "tip-rip" or "spine-rap"). Keep in mind this comes from my readings here at BF and other places, so I very well could be VERY wrong!

However, I'd never thought of using a bowie for an abaniko! I suppose you could use either the swedge OR the flat of the blade.

Finally, I thought "witik" (seen it spelled "wootik," too) meant a snap type strike, and the "lobtik" was a powerful "go on through and cut it in half" type strike.

I've only had an introduction to basic FMA angles of attack and techniques, read a little, and smacked some sticks last quarter with our judo instructor at OSU, who has had a bunch of kali. That's it, so if I'm completely over on Midway rather than in the Phillipines, you now know why.

I'm mainly commenting because I'm interested, not because I know anything!

Witikly, but hopefully not annoyingly yers,

Karl

 

[Don Rearic]

I think it can be considered a type of abanico~witik, but is not necessarily THAT, in and of itself.

On some Espada, you see a false edge [a swedge is unsharpened, technically speaking] and this is for backcutting movements and would really serve no other purpose but to back-cut.

A flat of the blade abanico can be a parry with a large blade to beat the other blade down, if the tip lands on that type of strike, you get a triangular tearing hole in flesh...

I think with the Bowie, the elbow has to be articulated upwards a bit more than with a regular abanico to get more of that secondary edge in play, and that is what Keating is focusing on, and therefore calling it something unique.

But Dave, your basic premise of things being lost because of these blade arts using the stick alot is a valid observation.

I think if you review the material and you worked it, that Snapcut to Backcut flow, 6 movements in total, you are going to lay waste to some serious people.

I know if you had one of Jerry's Fighters that has a secondary edge on it, and you have about 12 inches or more of razor sharp steel out there, you can Snapcut chunks out of someone quickly, same thing with the Backcut.

In the Final Analysis, I don't really care so much about the Origin of it, or any of that, the mere fact I know it and it works is good enough for me and that is the "rage" you speak of Dave.

If Keating uncovered something that has been lost in a Sea of Rattan, then it deserves to be a "rage." You sort of answered yourself really...

How did Keating make it popular? Because not that many people were doing it and he popularized it, that's simple enough. The fact it existed and was more or less "lost" by the masses who don't understand blade orientation is another matter entirely.

You do have to roll the wrist over more to get the false edge on someone, more so than merely "fanning." So, I think it is distinctly separate on one level...


------------------
Usual Suspect
Ipsa scientia potestas est aut disce aut discede
Some of my Knives and other neat things

 

[Dave Fulton]

Ooops! You're right Karl, I'd rather have a sweet rose than a sweaty one.

As for the terminology, there does seem to be some difference in usage depending upon who you're talking too. Although, the witik/abaniko is performed with a snapping motion as opposed to cutting through.

Yes, the witik/abaniko with the flat of the blade can be a parry, but I've always been told that it's better to use the spine to reduce the chances of breaking my own blade. I've never done it full speed, but I have done it at medium speed and I didn't like the feel of doing it with the flat because I got the sense that the blade could snap pretty easily. Also, I have been taught that "edge orientation" is important with a stick too and the way we define the "edge" of our stick, is by using the middle set of knuckles as the guide. When most people (that I've seen) swing their sticks, they're holding them so that they look like their punching. Using our method of "edge orientation" with a stick our wrists are rolled over more than is standard as you said. I do have to make adjustments to wrist and elbow positions on some planes of attack, but they're minor ones. These adjustments cause a drop in power along certain planes of attack, but if you're doing it with the "back cut" intent then you don't really need to generate the same power as you would with the stick usage.

I'm not slamming Keating or anything like that, btw. People were raving about it and making it sound like this great revelation, so I was expecting this great new technique for my "tool box". At first I was disappointed that it wasn't anything new for me. Then I started to wonder if this really was some big revelation to FMA people in general, and why. I started goofing around with it and thinking about it and realized that lots of FMA people could have lost it when the stick became the primary training tool, so I wanted to find out the impressions of other FMA people when they saw it for the first time.

Btw, I'm with you on the loss of understanding of "edge orientation" in the FMA and role that the stick has played in that loss.

So honestly people, has the FMA pretty much lost this techique or what?

Thanks!

Dave

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I love the stick. However, I want to be proficient in both the blade and stick aspects of the FMA, so I try to train for both and that is one reason why I'm always looking for a modern, combat ready blade that fits my system.

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 06-12-2001).]

 

[Pete Reiff]

Dave,

As a "newbie" I think the sticks may be over emphasized from preordained fear of blade training and greatly due to the increase in ranging for protection.

I mentioned doing some stuff learned at the seminar at my TSD class tonight and got the wide eyed -gulp look. I won't repeat what was said about going for say 5 observable cuts/stabs to determine a "winner".

I like using both blades and sticks within my somewhat spastic skill level, and have recently heard that a guard/hilt is a pretty important component in a good blade design.

Will start building my "Copy" tire dummy tomorrow after work.

 

[Dave Fulton]

Pete,

No doubt, fear has a lot to do with it in a lot of cases. I think a lot of the old timers who came over from the Philippines may have emphasized the stick in part for fear of liability in civil and criminal court cases. I also think that (as with most MA that become popular) there is only a small percentage of people that are "hardcore", with the majority going for the homogenized McDojo approach. Things like hard sparring and live blade training don't fit in with the McDojo philosophy. Then there's the stigma that's attached to knives in western cultures. Yes a guard is a good thing to have on a knife or sword.

The "wide eyed-gulp look"? What did you tell them?

So, what did they say? If you can't repeat it here (I'm sure you could, btw) then email me privately.

I'm really glad that you enjoyed the seminar and learned something of value. Sorry I couldn't be there, but maybe next time.

On the tire dummy, steel belted radials were a pain to work with (dulled several drill bits, etc), but will probably last longer. Does anyone even make tires without the steel belts anymore? In your email, you asked about tire sizes. I don't know the specific sizes because we used the ultra-scientific approach of "eye-balling" it. I'd use pick-up truck tires for the base, tires from a mid to large sized sedan for the "body" and tires from a compact car for the "head". Start there, and just "eye-ball" it.

Dave.

P.S. I read an article several years ago about an old-timer from the Philippines. The usual stuff, talked about the origin of his family's FMA and what his training (almost exclusively live blades) was like, etc. What made the biggest impression on me was when he talked about watching his brother die from a training accident. He was hit in the throat with a bolo during a two man drill.

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 06-13-2001).]

 

[DanielL]

I have never seen this Keating tape but I do have a comment regarding the blade aspect of the FMA's being forgotten due to the popularity of the stick. The stick has always been viewed as both a weapon and a training tool. The stick trains the hand to use the knife. If your instructor is not teaching you proper form in your stick techniques that directly transfer to the blade, you are getting ripped-off.

 

[Dave Fulton]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DanielL:
The stick trains the hand to use the knife. If your instructor is not teaching you proper form in your stick techniques that directly transfer to the blade, you are getting ripped-off.</font>

Well, yes and no on both comments.

There certainly is cross-over on many levels, but a stick and a blade each have unique qualities that affects how they're used. If you really want to know how to use both, then you have to train with both.

As for whether or not you're being ripped off, you have to ask yourself one simple question. Are they teaching me what they promised to teach me? If they promised to teach you the blade art but never do, then you've been ripped off. One thing that is important to do with a prospective teacher is, to talk honestly about your training goals (ie what you want to learn) and the training goals of the teacher/school (what the focus of their training is) and decide if the two sets of goals are compatible. You should talk about what they teach as well as the progression they teach it in. If both of you are honest, then there shouldn't be any surprises for either of you. Of course, sometimes goals change, so it's important to keep an open dialogue going with your teacher.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton




------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

 

[DanielL]

Hey Dave -

No arguments from me. I agree with you. Maybe I should not say ripped-off. But if someone begins your training with the stick and does not consider how it will effect your knife skills at a later time - he is not doing you any favors. If you focus on good form from the beginning, you will be ahead of the game when you pick up a knife. Even if you do not intend to do any knife training later on - why not do your stick work the right way? It's not much harder to learn. It's just a matter of the habits that you form early on in your training. Anybody can flail around with a stick. The point of training is learning how to do it right.

 

[Pete Kautz]

Howdy all! Just popping in here with a little info on the back cut. Historically, the back cut can be seen in the West fom the Medieval German manuscripts. It is clearly being delivered with the messer (lit. "knife") and the dusak in the plates of Hans Talhoffer, Albricht Durrer, and others. In the Renaissance, written description of this blow is found in some fencing manuals, where it is described as "A most dangerous blow" with the backsword (which had a sharp clip).

To draw lines of comparrison to the FMA, I would say the back cut has a lot more in common with the redondo than with the watik (at least as I was taught FMA and terminology). Though there are abanico tendancies also, the wrist action is different (as was mentioned above), and the planes of motion are different than an abanico (single or double action). If I was to classify it in FMA terms, I'd say "a redondo with the clip (false edge) as opposed to with the true edge". Anyhow, the doing is the important thing, and just wring words or watching a tape won't show it all. I advise anyone who wants to really understnd the back cut to get hands on with Mr. Keating or any of his instructors. Then you'll be able to see it for real and learn the "wheres, whys, and hows" of it all.

My best to all,

Pete Kautz
http://alliancemartialarts.com

 

[Dave Fulton]

DanielL,

I don't think you're getting what I was saying.

You said "Even if you do not intend to do any knife training later on - why not do your stick work the right way?"

What I was saying is that the stick and blade are not EXACTLY the same weapon. Yes there's overlap, but what is "right" for one isn't ALWAYS "right" for the other. Training with one doesn't guarantee success with the other. Success with both requires being intimately familiar with both and that requires a lot of training with both.

You also said "But if someone begins your training with the stick and does not consider how it will effect your knife skills at a later time - he is not doing you any favors."

This is true, IF he is supposed to be teaching you the blade. The stick is not just a training tool for the blade. It is also a weapon unto itself. If you only want to learn the blade, then go to someone who specializes in the blade. If you only want to learn stick, then go to someone who specializes in the stick. If you want to learn both, then do what I did and find someone who knows both.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

 

[Dave Fulton]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the historical info about the Back Cut in relation to western fencing. I hope you didn't think someone was questioning is presence in western fencing or making claims about where it came from originally. I certainly wasn't.

Inconsistent translation of terminology is one thing about eastern MA's that's a pain. I wouldn't have compared it to the Redondo that I do, but that's neither here nor there. All I can say is that the way I learned to witik uses the same wrist action. As I said previously, there are some very minor adjustments from what I'd normally do on some planes of attack. As for the planes of attack, I was taught to do witiks along vertical, horizontal and various diagonal planes, at different heights, to a variety of targets.

I don't know or care who thought of it first, or if it was a case of great minds thinking a like. All I know is as soon as I saw Keating do the Back Cut, I realized it was a witik (at least as I've learned the witik). The blades I have typically played with don't have sharpened top edges, so maybe that's why I didn't see the cutting application before.

My point in all this was just to find out if any other FMA players had seen the Back Cut and realized that it was already hidden away in their FMA arsenal.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

P.S. My wife will be thrilled to know that I need new blades.

 

[Pete Kautz]

Nope, didn't mean anything like that at all, Dave! Was just trying to add in another .02 on it all, as this is a favorite technique for me in free-fighting. You are right, termionology is very inconsistant, and written communication doesn't lend its self to describing some of the subtlties of movement anyhow. I see what you mean by the abanico more than the watic, but hey, no big deal...as long as you've got another good tool in the ol' toolbox and made the connection with what you know then that's the most important!

My best,

Pete Kautz
http://alliancemartialarts.com

 

[Don Rearic]

I think we can all agree that alot of things are, as I have said before, "Universal Principles" of movement, theory and practicality. A "Half Hanger" in Saber Fighting should be about the closest thing to an "Inside Wing" you could get. How you get there and what you do after might be different, but for the moment in time, they are basically the same. As per my eyes anyway, what do you think Pete?

------------------
Usual Suspect
Ipsa scientia potestas est aut disce aut discede
Some of my Knives and other neat things

 

[Pete Kautz]

Don - Yes, there is a huge connection between the saber and FMA. I could show you everything from a 19th c. saber manual and you could probably name it for me in Tagalog. The head protect is an umbrella, the sword arm protect is a payong, etc. It is *that* close a match. Even down to little things like having a numbering system for attacks and defenses, the saber and the FMA have many connections.

"Are they *really* relatives, or are they just technically similar?" is the question, and I don't know, honestly! I don't think anyone has ever been able to say for sure *exactly* what European influences there are on the FMA overall (see the old "did rapier and dagger influence espada y daga" story. I think not btw. - it would have been cutting swords...hmmm, like a saber)

The big difference is in range. The saber is a largo mano weapon, and too often people only train from medio and corto. This will bring out a different energy. Do somthing like the 6 or 10-Count Sumbrada from Largo with the saber and you will be tapping in with what you already do. Do not enter closer, instead work the "out of range into largo mano" transitions. (Obviously the off hand is not used at this range, unless you have a companion weapon or shield)

Best to all,

Pete Kautz
http://alliancemartialarts.com

BTW - Does any one remember the old article on Capoiera and FMA that was in IKF or BB years back? Again, many interesting similarities to be found, but is there a link? Who knows.

 

[Leo Daher]

BTW - Does any one remember the old article on Capoiera and FMA that was in IKF or BB years back? Again, many interesting similarities to be found, but is there a link? Who knows.

Pete, I'd really like to read that article. Do you (or any fellow forumites) know if I can find it online?

Thanks in advance,

Leo



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"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."

 

[Smoke]

Blackbeltmag.com doesn't list it but I have it somewhere.

Core ideas were history (land bridge theory, oppression) movement (triangle footwork, maculele/machete fighting relating to the bolo)and music (sinawalli beats as music, relating to the belimbau/berimbau)

 

[Leo Daher]

Smoke, i'd be forever grateful if you could find that article and send it to me!

I'd thought of the triangle footwork myself, but the truth is, there's very little if any training with machetes goin on these days (there's maculelê, but it's more of a folk dance than anything). I think that goes for any kind of bladed weapons, though straight razors were popular some decades ago (some old-timers were supposedly adept at holding them with their toes and slashing while kicking!), as well as poignards, to a lesser degree.

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"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."

 

[Don Rearic]

I honestly think that Pete's way of thinking is my own...

I get so discouraged when I see Western Martial Artists (and they ARE that, I don't need any of that Anti-Western M.A. attitude) say things like, "Well, you know, the Filipinos were tribal people and the Spanish gave them the most Scientific Aspect of their Arts.

If that is false, then the Western Guy becomes an arrogant slob.

On the other hand, they cannot refer to the Filipino People as being "Primitive, Tribal Savages" if they picked up on the Scientific Aspect of the Western Arts...can they? That's a contradiction.

A People, A Culture, cannot be conveniently brilliant and stupid at the same time...that's absurd.

Yet, you see it.

I've read an article from a Paladin Author and while I respect the body of work he has done, I don't respect the arrogance in what he wrote.

As I have always said, I believe for the most part, the way you use weapons are based on Universal Principles. There can be unique things, of course, but basically, there is only so many ways of doing something correctly and effectively.

Take a Compass or a Sextant, how many different ways can you effectively navigate with them?

The flip side is Oriental/Asian arrogance towards the Western Arts. I don't have much stomach for that either.

If you want to speak of European Influence, and you wish to piss someone off entirely, bring up the fact that Musashi was large for a Japanese, had a poor complexion, and might have had a Portuguese Father...

The Advocate of Japanese Arts will call B.S. on that and claim that the Europeans are trying to hijack Musashi's Two-Sword System.

Yet, maybe his System developed independently and maybe it had Portuguese Influence...

We're never really going to know.

I like to see everyone get together and everyone benefit from all.

I think it is entirely possible that the vast majority of these systems developed on their own as there are only so many ways to do something correctly.

That's my take on the controversy anyway.



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Usual Suspect
Ipsa scientia potestas est aut disce aut discede
Some of my Knives and other neat things

 

[the Khazar Kid]

Speaking of Capoeira, bladed weapons, and similarities to other arts, some Capoeira schools traditionally used the "navalha".

www.osmalandrosdemestretouro.bigstep.com/
schoolofarms.tripod.com/

Originally a "Capoeira" was a slang term in Brazil for a hoodlum or lowlife, like a "Baratero" in Spain at the same time. Both arts are connected closely to dance in their physical movement base, Flamenco and Breakdancing respectively. Both arts developed among the oppressed and outcast classes. Both arts developed in Latin societies, but each have some possible African/Moorish base.