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- May 2, 1999
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The French school of saber, which was the most widely practiced in Spain during the 19th c. is most likely an adaptation of a root style that developed in Eastern Europe, the proper homeland of the saber.
The Spanish were quite fond of their double-edged cut-and-thrust swords(often known as "bilbos"), and retained them into the 19th century, at which time they were replaced by the saber. Though some early patterns featured very straight blades, the general trend is that the sabers of the first half of the 19th c. are French in influence, and the sabers of the second half tend to have an Eastern European influence.
What I'm getting at is that the Spanish would have been the primary agents for any Western art influencing the FMA. If there was an FMA/saber relation, then the FMA are probably being influenced by French or Eastern European saber styles, through the Spanish. This would suggest that the FMA as we know them would have more or less been systemized in the 19th century. Given that the FMA, to my mind, bear a stronger resemblance to Med and Ren styles than Classical styles, the 19th c. seems a bit late to me.
The truth is that not enough is generaly known about Spanish martial arts right now to draw any sound conclusions. I am working to correct that, and may well have discovered the first shred of evidence that will shed some light on the truth of this controversy. I am currently translating a chapter from a Spanish saber manual, dated 1862, that deals with the saber against the knife. The intresting thing here is a few of the knives mentioned; the gumia, and the kris... Here, I'll just give you a teaser;
"502. Also used among the pirates and savages of the Filipine archipeligo, are various cutting weapons called cris, campilan, and lanza arrojadiza : the first two, are a modification of the gumia, and are of straight figure or else formed with various continuous curves*; with respect to the third, it is the same as its name suggests, though more a cutting weapon than the lance used by the Cavalry of our army."
*(undulating edges of the kriss, I presume)
The gumia is a Moorish dagger.
Anyway, this whole chapter will be available in English and Spanish on my site in another week or two. It goes on to talk a little about how the Moros fight with their weapons. I will warn all Filipinos and FMA-ers upfront that Spanish opinion regarding these people did not seem to be the highest.
"Baratero" did not refer to just any "hoodlum or lowlife", it does refer to a fairly specific caste of "street people".
Tirar a la navaja isn't closely connected to Flamenco, besides being developed by the same cultures. It is pretty much the one position. This idea originated maybe a year or two ago in a thread on some dumb Van Dam movie where he enters a ultimate fighting contest of some sort. Someone was asking about the Spanish fighter, and someone else said that the "S" guard he adopted in the movie was only seen in flamenco. I pointed out that a similar guard was used in tirar a la navaja when you are unarmed and facing a knife.
I will readily concede that I've never seen a dance that didn't either share much with sexual or combative movements of its culture. You're just taking this to an unreasonable extreme.
Finaly, Spain isn't really a "Latin" society. While there is a lot of common cultural ground between Latin America and Spain, they are also distinct and proud cultures. All my friends who were born in Latin America, and even a few who were born in North America but are of Latin descent, are fairly quick to point out the difference between Latin and Spanish. Though, of course, this may simply be a local idiosyncracy.
What does matter is that you don't have the same mix of cultural and ethnic groups in Spain as you do in Latin America. The blacks brought as slaves to South America are of a different stock with a radicaly different culture than those of Morocco. Something about this great huge desert seperating the two for the longest time...
Not to mention that tirar a la navaja is firmly grounded in the Spanish martial traditions, and isn't a Moroccan import.
The Spanish were quite fond of their double-edged cut-and-thrust swords(often known as "bilbos"), and retained them into the 19th century, at which time they were replaced by the saber. Though some early patterns featured very straight blades, the general trend is that the sabers of the first half of the 19th c. are French in influence, and the sabers of the second half tend to have an Eastern European influence.
What I'm getting at is that the Spanish would have been the primary agents for any Western art influencing the FMA. If there was an FMA/saber relation, then the FMA are probably being influenced by French or Eastern European saber styles, through the Spanish. This would suggest that the FMA as we know them would have more or less been systemized in the 19th century. Given that the FMA, to my mind, bear a stronger resemblance to Med and Ren styles than Classical styles, the 19th c. seems a bit late to me.
The truth is that not enough is generaly known about Spanish martial arts right now to draw any sound conclusions. I am working to correct that, and may well have discovered the first shred of evidence that will shed some light on the truth of this controversy. I am currently translating a chapter from a Spanish saber manual, dated 1862, that deals with the saber against the knife. The intresting thing here is a few of the knives mentioned; the gumia, and the kris... Here, I'll just give you a teaser;
"502. Also used among the pirates and savages of the Filipine archipeligo, are various cutting weapons called cris, campilan, and lanza arrojadiza : the first two, are a modification of the gumia, and are of straight figure or else formed with various continuous curves*; with respect to the third, it is the same as its name suggests, though more a cutting weapon than the lance used by the Cavalry of our army."
*(undulating edges of the kriss, I presume)
The gumia is a Moorish dagger.
Anyway, this whole chapter will be available in English and Spanish on my site in another week or two. It goes on to talk a little about how the Moros fight with their weapons. I will warn all Filipinos and FMA-ers upfront that Spanish opinion regarding these people did not seem to be the highest.
"Baratero" did not refer to just any "hoodlum or lowlife", it does refer to a fairly specific caste of "street people".
Tirar a la navaja isn't closely connected to Flamenco, besides being developed by the same cultures. It is pretty much the one position. This idea originated maybe a year or two ago in a thread on some dumb Van Dam movie where he enters a ultimate fighting contest of some sort. Someone was asking about the Spanish fighter, and someone else said that the "S" guard he adopted in the movie was only seen in flamenco. I pointed out that a similar guard was used in tirar a la navaja when you are unarmed and facing a knife.
I will readily concede that I've never seen a dance that didn't either share much with sexual or combative movements of its culture. You're just taking this to an unreasonable extreme.
Finaly, Spain isn't really a "Latin" society. While there is a lot of common cultural ground between Latin America and Spain, they are also distinct and proud cultures. All my friends who were born in Latin America, and even a few who were born in North America but are of Latin descent, are fairly quick to point out the difference between Latin and Spanish. Though, of course, this may simply be a local idiosyncracy.
What does matter is that you don't have the same mix of cultural and ethnic groups in Spain as you do in Latin America. The blacks brought as slaves to South America are of a different stock with a radicaly different culture than those of Morocco. Something about this great huge desert seperating the two for the longest time...
Not to mention that tirar a la navaja is firmly grounded in the Spanish martial traditions, and isn't a Moroccan import.