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The Best Knife Steel/s?????
- Thread starter JDBLADE
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Are you saying these steels must be forged to get be optimum?JDBLADE said:
Please describe how these steels benefit from forging.
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In no order:
A2
BG42
VG10
440
154CM
IN ORDER
VG10
BG42
A2
154CM
440 series----Generally the best consumer steel. Why knifemakers have not abandoned 420 for this is a mistery to me. I thought 440 came out on the 1940s or 50s!
A2
BG42
VG10
440
154CM
IN ORDER
VG10
BG42
A2
154CM
440 series----Generally the best consumer steel. Why knifemakers have not abandoned 420 for this is a mistery to me. I thought 440 came out on the 1940s or 50s!
Chuck Bybee said:
Any steel benefits from forging. This way the big crystals are pushed near the edge, thus giving hardness, while the small ones stay in the core of the blade, giving its flexibility.
BTW, speaking of favorite steels, here's my pick:
S30V
VG-10
ATS-55 - very underrated steel IMO, much better than ATS-34 / 154 CM (with which, unfortunately, I had not so great experience(s)
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Please explain how the big crystals are pushed near the edge.dialex said:
How big are these crystals?
How can a bladesmith differentiate between the large crystals and small crystals?
What is the best tool for pushing the crystals?
Cliff Stamp
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That's easy, steels benefit from forging because then you can sell the knife for more money. QED.
-Cliff
-Cliff
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Cliff Stamp said:
This statement actually makes no sense. Yes you can charge more money for the knife, but it also takes you more time to make it. You don't end up making more money per hour for the the time you put into the knife.
As far as why forging is supposed to make for a better blade; from what I have read and heard working the steel is supposed to refine the grain structure of the steel. Rex Walter, who is a scientist that works for a steel company and who also works with Ed Fowler has done tests that seem to show that this is true.
I supposte to be technically correct all steels are forged in the first instance. From my experience simple carbon steels benefit from the "re-forging" and working of the steel which refines the grain structure. I don't know about complex steels esp. stainless although I would expect that the same processes would apply.
Cliff Stamp
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Keith that isn't even close to true, the prices for high end knives have nothing in common with the work hours. Its all about demand, a $5000 ABS bowie doesn't take 20 times as long to make as a $250 bowie from a relatively unknown maker. The post I made was also a semi-serious one of course.
All steels benefit from forging, which has nothing to do with packing crystals. You don't make the steel denser or anything by mashing it. When you forge steel, or deform it in any way there is an increase in dislocation density which when the steel is retretransformed will lead to grain refinement because of a corrosponding increase in austenite nucleation cites.
However note all steels are forged now when made, rolled, cross rolled, etc. . Note as well that the CPM steels in particular are very fine grained as is, from Crucible. It should also be noted that this can only take you so far, grain refiement on 52100 for example will never get you to the wear resistance of D2, let alone something like CPM-10V.
There are lots of solid steels now which perform at very high levels without hammer forging, Busse Combats SR101 and INFI set a very high standard for toughness and overall functionality, and makers like Phil Wilson, R. J. Martin and company offer extreme edge retention and so on.
-Cliff
All steels benefit from forging, which has nothing to do with packing crystals. You don't make the steel denser or anything by mashing it. When you forge steel, or deform it in any way there is an increase in dislocation density which when the steel is retretransformed will lead to grain refinement because of a corrosponding increase in austenite nucleation cites.
However note all steels are forged now when made, rolled, cross rolled, etc. . Note as well that the CPM steels in particular are very fine grained as is, from Crucible. It should also be noted that this can only take you so far, grain refiement on 52100 for example will never get you to the wear resistance of D2, let alone something like CPM-10V.
There are lots of solid steels now which perform at very high levels without hammer forging, Busse Combats SR101 and INFI set a very high standard for toughness and overall functionality, and makers like Phil Wilson, R. J. Martin and company offer extreme edge retention and so on.
-Cliff
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I don't know if it is all about demand so much as it is maybe ego and personal attachment on the part of the makers. One of the biggest complaints at the last show by several knife makers there was that they didn't sell that much. After hearing this and going around to their tables I could see why. They want too darned much money for them.
You know, I make knives too. I like to think I can make a pretty good one. But after two or three shows or maybe more you would think if you still had a knife sitting in your inventory that you wanted to sell that maybe you were simply asking too much for it? No? Just a thought.
I doubt many makers have a science as to how they come up with a price for a knife they have made.
I can only tell you how I do it. Granted, I'm retired and anything I sell is simply a suplement. But what I do is I simply try to pay myself 20 bucks an hour and add in the cost of materials for a project on top of that figure. If I have to take less than that to move it over a few shows then so be it. It usually works out in the long run.
You know, I make knives too. I like to think I can make a pretty good one. But after two or three shows or maybe more you would think if you still had a knife sitting in your inventory that you wanted to sell that maybe you were simply asking too much for it? No? Just a thought.
I doubt many makers have a science as to how they come up with a price for a knife they have made.
I can only tell you how I do it. Granted, I'm retired and anything I sell is simply a suplement. But what I do is I simply try to pay myself 20 bucks an hour and add in the cost of materials for a project on top of that figure. If I have to take less than that to move it over a few shows then so be it. It usually works out in the long run.
Elvislives
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What, nobody here likes the Rosta-frei mon?
When I was making knives I had a similar formulae the cost of materials plus so much for "per inch" for the steel I used (as 440c was easier to grind then D2 it was a cheaper rate) of knife blade plus standard charges for a sheath based on small, medium and large. I stuck to this formulae through thick and thin and sold all my knives. One thing I did not do was bargain or discount. Often a prospective customer would ask "will you take X amount of dollars" and my reply would be that knifemaking was my craft and I didn't bargain it. If they didn't like the price then they didn't buy it. One thing I have noticed about Knifemakers here is that as they become more "popular" they charged higher prices - a matter of supply and demand I suppose.
For non-custom blades I'd go with s30v or VG-10. But I'm very interested in how zdp-189 will turn out. Currently, only William Henry's kitchen collection uses it, but I heard Spyderco is coming out with a knife containing a zdp-189 core. This stuff hardens to around 68 Rc, and supposedly is still very tough, not brittle like other steels would be
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Personally i've found old carbon steels to be the best when it comes to cutting and sharpening. Old kitchen knives and pocket knives with a nice patina on them get better then razor sharp with a few slaps on a rock. I really am convinced well cared for carbon steel developes better properties the longer it is used. I don't know the proper name and/or number for those steels, but if you guys do let me know.
Anyway, my favorite steels for use are S30V and D2. I like M2 also, but it needs to be kept sharp, let it get too dull and it is a pain to bring back. However, I have not tried anything in CPM-#V, A2, or O1 which I would like to try all of them.
Anyway, my favorite steels for use are S30V and D2. I like M2 also, but it needs to be kept sharp, let it get too dull and it is a pain to bring back. However, I have not tried anything in CPM-#V, A2, or O1 which I would like to try all of them.
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Keith Montgomery said:
The end, amen, thanks for coming, and goodnight! 3V is absolutely the bees' knees.
These are the steels I've used and my opinions:
1095-A good, well rounded carbon steel found on many inexpensive knives(notice I didn't say cheap? to me cheap implies quality rather than price).
440A- good in the fact that it is easy to get razor sharp and is fairly tough for a stainless...bad in the fact that the edge doesn't last very long and it bends fairly easily on thinner blades
440C-a good all purpose stainless; good edge holding and great corrosion resistance
CPMs30v-Great edge holding and toughness (for a stainless), but can be pretty difficult to sharpen and put a shaving edge on.
VG10-My favorite stainless. Pretty tough from my experience, and it seems to take the most aggressive edge of any steel I've used.
CPM3v-The steel that ruined all others for me. My absolute favorite. SOME corrosion resistance (but I still keep a coating of REM Oil on it when not in use), and edge holding that is out of this world. Excellent toughness and impact resistance. Just might be the best blade steel around.
Now, keep in mind that there are obviously many steels I haven't used. These are just my opinions based on personal experience. I still want to get my hands on some INFI (ummmm, hellooooooo....Battle Mistress???)
1095-A good, well rounded carbon steel found on many inexpensive knives(notice I didn't say cheap? to me cheap implies quality rather than price).
440A- good in the fact that it is easy to get razor sharp and is fairly tough for a stainless...bad in the fact that the edge doesn't last very long and it bends fairly easily on thinner blades
440C-a good all purpose stainless; good edge holding and great corrosion resistance
CPMs30v-Great edge holding and toughness (for a stainless), but can be pretty difficult to sharpen and put a shaving edge on.
VG10-My favorite stainless. Pretty tough from my experience, and it seems to take the most aggressive edge of any steel I've used.
CPM3v-The steel that ruined all others for me. My absolute favorite. SOME corrosion resistance (but I still keep a coating of REM Oil on it when not in use), and edge holding that is out of this world. Excellent toughness and impact resistance. Just might be the best blade steel around.
Now, keep in mind that there are obviously many steels I haven't used. These are just my opinions based on personal experience. I still want to get my hands on some INFI (ummmm, hellooooooo....Battle Mistress???)