The BEST steel ... a proposal

J

jeffj

Joined
Apr 8, 1999
Messages
439
Okay, I've been thinking about this for a bit and thought I would give it a shot on the forum to see if it sounded like a good idea.

I've seen so many posts of the performance of steel/talonite, that I wanted to make a proposal to attempt to address this in a more formal experiment. Just to get started, I want to say that if we all pitch in, we could get some good data, so I would be willing to purchase some of the materials for the experiment and maybe some of the organization!

We would start with an edge holding experiment. What I would do is to gather the materials for several knives using 440C (low end), ATS-34, BG-42, CPM-440V, CPM-420V, Talonite, A-2, D-2, CPM-10V, etc. A good representation of available blade materials. Get pins and handle materials and send some of the materials to several makers (this is where some of you all come in). The knives would all be made to the same specification. Flat grind, same edge geometry, length, thickness, handle material, pins, etc. Each blade would be heat treated according to the best known method for each material (and subsequently published, if possible). The unmarked knives would then be delivered to testers (again that is where you all come in) and they would gather statistics that I would be glad to compile and run tests on! We could even formulate some sort of destructive testing after that.

Well what do you think?

jj
 
I'm sorry. This isn't going to be very constructive (yet) but with a background in science, I'd like to see a test like this but it would be meaningless unless the right questions were asked, there was a statistically significant number of each type, extraneous variables were eliminated and objective measurements taken.

To the first point, are we looking for the best steel for a Bowie, a throwing knife, a hunting knife or a fillet knife? All different steels I'm sure.

To the second point, way too much could happen to a single blade to be significant - over-heat during grinding - stress to the barstock before delivery to the maker and much more that a greenhorn like me can't imagine.

To the third point, there is no way that different makers could accurately duplicate edge geometry. One maker, one technique - and jigs or fixtures would be a good thing here. Just to complicate things will these be forged or stock removal?

To the last point, all hardnesses tested on the same machine - all cuts done on a consistent and reproduceable medium - destructive tests carefully measured

How about corrosion testing - ability to take a finish - machineability - consistency of supply - availability?

I would suggest we don't need handles on these.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking the idea. It will just take a great deal of planning and consistency for the results to mean anything.

My $.02 (Canadian)



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Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
Hmmmm....I realize the need to control variables...I am not without a scientific background. But I also realize that materials testing is NOT purely scientific. The point was to control as many variables as possible with a set standard for preparation in order to eliminate testing biases.

So, without testing as such, how is it that you all formulate your opinions? Do you just test your favorite knives? George, why did you choose 440C? Surely if it were just economics/stain resistance then you would use 440A. Surely, a more informed decision is worth the effort.

Then again, I may be wasting my time because I think Tom Mayo has been working on a prototype light saber!
smile.gif


jj
 
I test my own blades by taking a couple of mountain dew case boxes from the huge pile next to my fridge and cut them into confetti. Then I do some leatherwork with them, if they're of an appropriate design.
Last, I hand them to my wife when she's in the kitchen. If she throws it back at me, it fails.

------------------
Oz

Now, what other news did I have? Oh yes, IT'S A GIRL!!!
See her and my latest blades @
http://www.freespeech.org/oz/
 
Wow Rob! You'd better watch how you talk. The opinionists on here will crucify you. Science? Variables? Controls? Sorry, logic is not allowed here...
smile.gif


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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
No Jerry, it's not like that at all. It was about *feelings*. I had a feeling I could get someone else to collect - err - find meaningful data -err - the inherent good in all err.....

Aw heck. Busted!



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Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
Rob, never ever reveal your *feelings* to a bunch of knifemakers. They are completely insensitive and, in the case of Tom Mayo anyway, sometimes sadistic.
smile.gif


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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Rob :

way too much could happen to a single blade to be significant
Click to expand...

there is no way that different makers could accurately duplicate edge geometry
Click to expand...

Do you realize what these statements imply about a custom makers abilites?

jeffj, I have had tentative offers my several makers offering blades to do exactly the kind of thing you are suggesting. If it does come to pass I can drop you an email with the blade specs and if you want you can include other blades with the same geometry and we can discuss method and such.

I would suggest that you discuss this with the following makers : Phil Wilson, Ed Schott, Ed Caffery and R. J. Martin .

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

I will have to admit that you are the very person I had in mind for testing, I have appreciated your efforts given the constraints imposed upon you. The information you've provided has been valuable and I'm sure a lot of forumites have used this information to base their opinions on performance of steels! This is why I wanted to do this.

As to the two statements from Rob, I realize that they will need to be addressed, but this is not as complicated as it might seem.

If you want drop me that email...it's a place to start. There hasn't been a lot of response yet...except for the employee/employer problems at Mayo Knives.
smile.gif


jj
 
Jeff :

As to the two statements from Rob, I realize that they will need to be addressed, but this is not as complicated as it might seem.
Click to expand...

In regards to the geometry question. I would find it very hard to believe that the best custom makers could not produce knives that you would have extreme difficulty telling apart. This assumes of course that you have them grind in a familiar manner and have each maker have a model or a very precise description to work from.

There are two wide approaches, the first what you suggest, pick a simple geometry, say 1/16 stock, no taper, 1" wide with a chisel grind and a traditional tanto point with say a tip arc of 1" in length. The second is to have the makers grind each blade in the geometry which they think is best able to handle the given use based on the material properties of the steel.

The first option will give you blades that tend to cut similar but will have vastly different levels of durability. The second option gives you blades that have similar durability levels but very different cutting abilities.

As for the chance that a blade might give misinformation about the steels abilities. It is of course possible that the steel be bad, or the maker screw up the heat treat, or botch the grinding or whatever and produce a flawed knife. However what do you think the probablity is that this happens and the maker doesn't detect this during the process which includes a sharpening and for most, RC checks and some test work.

As well, the first thing you do is some rough work to get a feel for the material and discuss this with the maker to make sure that everything is as it should be. No attempt is made for quantification here you are just looking at a qualitative ranking so the maker can judge its abilities and verify that everything is on the level.

You can of course simply get each maker to produce two of each blade type. Not only would that make the probability of blade failure very remote (the probability would be square, if it was 1/100 for one bad blade, it would be 1/10000 for two), but it would make testing very quick for example you could do grits two at a time or various blunting stocks etc. .

-Cliff
 
Umm....Hi

This is Rob of "Rob's two comments" fame. Actually, I raised at least four issues.

Yes Cliff I do realize what my comments suggest about custom knifemakers abilities. They make beautiful, functional detailed products that I can only someday aspire to.

Look back in the forums. People do full to the spine grinds because the first four attempts at symmetry weren't quite right. People don't make mistakes, they just change plans. If you are also a shooter, you know what pre-manufacture stresses on a barrel blank can do to a barrels accuracy. Don't you think it would also affect a knife? Almost every maker in the recent thread on "scary sharp" eyeballs the angle on a slack belt. Will there be a difference between 19 or 21 degrees? Probably at least as much as the difference between say 1084 and 1095.

I wasn't knocking makers. The stuff I'm talking about is why I like these guys more than a CNC mill. They can do amazing stuff that just leaves your jaw on the ground. No insults intended.

I'd just like to see meaningful results. If the 420V breaks before the 440V I don't want to have to wonder if the guy with the fork lift whacked that bar removing it from the truck - or whether better cutting is due to a 2 degree angle difference, the diamond hone used or the harder carbides.

The idea wasn't to test the makers - it was test the steel.



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Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
You guys are beginning to see why I consider it a complete waste of time....too many variables!!!!

Most of those variables are beyond the control of the test. Assuming you chose a 440C to test, what mill made it? is it at the top, middle or low end of the Carbon spec?, are there inclusions?, what is the heat history? because the heat treating specs are different for each metal what tolerances were observed? was it run at top end, middle or low end of temperature range?
ETC ETC ETC ETC

The only accurate method is to write the names of all the steels that you can think of on slips of paper, put them in a hat, draw one out and call it the winner.

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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com


If the chosen steel works in your application go with it!


[This message has been edited by george tichbourne (edited 04-13-2000).]
 
Yea George!!! If there was one perfect steel then there would be one perfect grind, then one perfect design. That would shoot the hell out of individualisum and thats what all this "custom" knife makings all about isn't it. It would be a dam tuff market if we were all making identical chisel ground tantos and nothing else because they "proved" to be the best. By who, for what, why, and when!!!!
You make what you want I will make what I want. If your customer comes to you and wants somthing different..... well if you won't make it i'll try it for him.

Thats my .25 worth .20 in America.
Robert
 
I must interject something...

First, I think a problem is that you are jumping to conclusions about the test. No procedures have been written, no parameters have been set, ... this is now somewhat open. Further, the first test I am proposing is just to measure the single characteristic - edge holding. Yes, yes, there are other characteristics. But I wish to isolate each, for the simple reason some of you are suggesting, there are too many applications for which a blade may require different variables. Isolating each will give you an idea of the relative performance of each characteristic.

Second, I am sure that no one believes that a random drawing of steel names would produce the better choice for a single application. There wouldn't be so many choices of steels if they all performed the same! It seems you all believe this because you already, as makers, choose a particular steel and justify it in some way. The fact that we have these choices, begs comparison of their merits. There may not be a "best" choice, and in fact I don't believe there is (thank goodness, this is too much fun), but I do believe in the idea of a "better" choice.

Third, I would question how most if not all of us have come to our opinions on the materials we use. Do you rely on isolated testing where no direct comparisons take place? Do you attempt to control the application, geometries, testing procedures? Do you look at the charts and tables that the manufacturer provides (completely unrelated to knives)? Do we rely on a maker's opinion? Don't get me wrong, I think a maker's experience is extremely valuable, but as a maker have you wondered "How well does X really out perform Y?" I've not seen a test that does a direct comparison of steels/blade materials directly related to our industry. This is what I would like to see happen.

jj
 
George :

The only accurate method is to write the names of all the steels that you can think of on slips of paper, put them in a hat, draw one out and call it the winner.
Click to expand...

Is that how you chose 440C? Did you figure out your heat treat method the same way? What about your grinding method, blade geometry handle materials, ergonomics ...

-Cliff
 
Jeff :

There may not be a "best" choice
Click to expand...

There is nothing impossible about selecting a "best" method, material or whatever. All you have to do is define the criteria and the procedure for evaluation. This is the hard part, actually doing the ranking is much easier.

Basically the more narrow you can make your defination the easier it is do make the decision. For example "edge holding" is a very broad catagory and it would take a lot of work to get a meaningful answer (impacts require high toughness, lateral stress needs good strength and grit makes wear resistance important). However "edge holding on 1" hemp rope, cut with a straight push cut" is much more specific and easier to evaluate. Now you just have to define how to evaluate the edge degredation.

-Cliff
 
Now that's a good question about how we formed our opinions. I'll start because as a newbie, my list is short.

Every commercial knife I've bought in recent history was 440C except the Buck which was, I think, 425HC. It was dissatisfaction with all those that drove me to making knives. I would have to resharpen, sometimes several times through skinning a deer. Last fall, I used the first knife I ever made to field dress and skin two deer and two moose without sharpening. On the deer, I also split the pelvis by placing the point on the suture line and whacking it with the heel of my hand. That's how I formed my opinion of ATS34. I like it. Right now, I would love to try talonite but I just can't afford it yet. Maybe that makes it your turn Tom. Care to jump in?



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Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
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