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The Best Steel - Cut Tests and Opinions
- Thread starter Tommy-Chi
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That's just insulting and rude. We are having a measured discussion about the scientific methods behind the results presented here, and your contribution is "Haters gonna hate."
So you think everyone who has raised their objections to the methods presented has done so for the sole reason that they are mindless "haters" who can't help themselves?
Nobody knows what a controlled experiment is? Nobody objects to inaccurate data and unsubstantiated conclusions?
Of course you are welcome to accept the conclusions given without thinking about what they are based on, but please dont insult the people here who do choose to think about what they are based on.
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You always say something negative about all my posts. U could just put me on ignore so you don't see my posts. I would like that.
That's just insulting and rude. We are having a measured discussion about the scientific methods behind the results presented here, and your contribution is "Haters gonna hate."
So you think everyone who has raised their objections to the methods presented has done so for the sole reason that they are mindless "haters" who can't help themselves?
Nobody knows what a controlled experiment is? Nobody objects to inaccurate data and unsubstantiated conclusions?
Of course you are welcome to accept the conclusions given without thinking about what they are based on, but please dont insult the people here who do choose to think about what they are based on.
Also as i added... If I don't see that in reality I can do my own tests and verify my own findings.
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I doubt that you and or many of the other haters even watched any of his videos or how he talks about the tests that he does.
Sure they are not perfect but no test is perfect for this magic figure were all looking for. Talking about it and saying one isn't as good than the other etc just does nothing. So question all you want. Doesn't change the facts that no one's going to have perfect figures.
I do recall Peter saying something alone the lines of. . If you have issue with his tests to pull up a chair and start your own data.
This so called "tester" is a textbook example of confirmation bias.
He knows what the steel is at the start and he knows what he wants the results to be before the test starts and voila that's what the results are.
Believers of the results? They're naturally attracted to something that confirms their own bias. No mystery here.
Hitching your cart to people like this Cedric guy or Nutnfanci or anyone else who's primary skill is the relentless pursuit of social media fame is a major mistake.
He knows what the steel is at the start and he knows what he wants the results to be before the test starts and voila that's what the results are.
Believers of the results? They're naturally attracted to something that confirms their own bias. No mystery here.
Hitching your cart to people like this Cedric guy or Nutnfanci or anyone else who's primary skill is the relentless pursuit of social media fame is a major mistake.
Pete's tests do show pretty good consistency, in that knives from different makers in the same steel produce similar results.
Of course there are variables that are not controlled in his tests like cutting force, angle used to slice the rope, and (to get really picky), how the printer paper is cut.
He uses the same: 1) edge angles, 2) cutting medium, 3) cutting surface, and 4) testing medium. What more do you want from a low cost, backyard test?
Of course there are variables that are not controlled in his tests like cutting force, angle used to slice the rope, and (to get really picky), how the printer paper is cut.
He uses the same: 1) edge angles, 2) cutting medium, 3) cutting surface, and 4) testing medium. What more do you want from a low cost, backyard test?
sharp_edge
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Some interesting points here but could you elaborate? For example, did the tester know beforehand that some steels would perform the best at certain edge angles and/or on certain materials than others so that the test was set up in a way to bring out the max performance of these steels? Is that what you were implying?
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This thread is full of opinions from people who are sure they are right. The last thing I want to do is debate those people.
With that said, the C&A YouTube channel is a great resource in my opinion. He says it's not scientific and even calls his tests "bro science". Keeping that in mind, I find his tests to be very informative. If one knife cuts 265 times and another cuts 290 times, that could certainly be a margin of error. His tests do however put the different steel types into categories or buckets. You can see from his testing that some steels just hold an edge longer than others.
I personally find what he does to be a great addition to my more scientific research.
With that said, the C&A YouTube channel is a great resource in my opinion. He says it's not scientific and even calls his tests "bro science". Keeping that in mind, I find his tests to be very informative. If one knife cuts 265 times and another cuts 290 times, that could certainly be a margin of error. His tests do however put the different steel types into categories or buckets. You can see from his testing that some steels just hold an edge longer than others.
I personally find what he does to be a great addition to my more scientific research.
It's a simple matter of bias. Both overt and subconscious. Everyone has it and when you involve your "self" in the process you bias the results.
Running double blind tests with the tester unaware of what steel or brand of knife is being used is a start. Doing that and using a mechanical rig to perform the cuts is an even better step. Otherwise it's just cracker barrel opinion.
That's where the folks who reside under the tent of scientific method butt heads with the folks who live and die by social media footprints.
And I'll fully disclose that I fully reside in the camp of scientific method. The current trend of social media influence is built on a foundation of sand.
Scientific method is mostly boring, sometimes incomprehensible, very slow to produce results (that's on purpose) and doesn't always sizzle or translate well to a 2 minute video. I'm OK with all those negatives.
Exactly right, I agree with everything you said. Pete's tests are not scientific. But he doesn't claim that they are.
His tests are useful though as long as you don't read too much into them. They do help with everyday knife buying decisions.
For example, how much more should I spend to buy a knife with a premium steel like M390? Everyone would probably agree M390 is better than S30V. But how much better? If M390 is just a little bit better than S30V, then it probably isn't worth the extra money (all other factors being equal). But Pete's tests show that M390 is significantly better in edge retention, and this helps me make a more informed buying decision.
That "test" and any result is just for him. His real world "currency" is too close to zero to measure.
I am just as likely to choose a knife based on his YouTube channel as I am to take advice from Kim Kardashian or Jake Paul.
Feel free to be entertained by what he does. When his results are touted here they are subject to a rigorous peer review and spoiler alert it's not going well for him.
Social media influencer videos are opinion and not fact. That's why every time someone starts one of these threads it gets dissected and discarded rapidly. That's why they get so little respect here and their fans don't get pats on the back.
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I don't have a dog in this fight, I just have a question. When you mention this youtuber as a social media influencer are you including YouTube as one such form of social media? Not a trick question I'm just wondering if you're referring to something else.
I've watched some of his knife comparisons and reviews, but I too personally stay away from the testing results I'm not sure for the same reasons but regardless I hold scientific objectivity dear to my heart. At the same time though, I'm not so harshly critical to a well-meaning goofy guy who doesn't claim to be definitively testing anything just giving his own personal test. I'm sorry I don't mean to argue too much I just think you can say what you have to say without being so scornful but that's just my humble opinion only.
I agree that double blind studies would be necessary to control for testing bias. I ve yet to come across a study done this way. But I haven t seen them all.
And I also agree that mechanical testing would eliminate the variability inherent in human physical effort. The tests I watch are Ankerson and C and A. (I also watch Shabazz). Nothing strictly scientific in these. But better than ordering blind off the internet based on the company info.
Further, testing the various steels in the form of Spyderco mules with presumably close to identical grinds would also control for another variable. But testing various knives produced with the steel tested does add some useful information as these are the knives we ll be buying.
C and A does control for edge angle and sharpening smoothness as well as testing media. I feel that his tests provide data which is not scientific as he admits, but is somewhat useful for me in making buying decisions.
But this could just be another form of marketing that I succumbing to. I try to avoid it, but I admit that I fall into that group of 97% of the members of this forum that are swayed by marketing. The 3% that are not influenced by marketing have my great admiration and respect.
I find C and A s reviews useful . I believe his results are based on a foundation on sand, with a few rocks in it.
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Use the scientific method to setup a controlled experiment.
The tester won't know what the steel type or knife brand is. The tests will be preformed by a method that eliminates human error and fatigue.
The tests will be repeatable and the results will be subject to peer review.
Exactly. It aint rocket science. (BLAHAHAHAHAHA...I crack me up)
The results by the YouTuber are purely anecdotal. Nothing wrong with that, but, like I said before, I feel no need to pretend they are something they aren't. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.
And like D Danke42 stated so well, we are going to see that pig becuase we have all seen these "experiments" may times before.
Heck, read knarfeng's earlier posts in the thread. Dude is like an actual materials science/metallurgist guy, if I recall.
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So what your saying is cliffs stamp and ankerson tests are also useless. Good to know.
In any case its data. I use all the tests including those in Russia that I can't understand but can read the results. They are all pretty similar and align well with catra in some cases.
In any case its data. I use all the tests including those in Russia that I can't understand but can read the results. They are all pretty similar and align well with catra in some cases.
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