The Bottom Line on Randalls

As much as I like Randall Made Knives we have had a miscommunication which should be corrected.

I have sent a note off to Mr. Pendray the current President of the Guild and he was able to clarify this for us. Although the Bi-laws of the Knife Maker's Guild are unspecific with respect to the definition of "custom" knife. The rules published for the Guild show are very clear. Here is the definition as published for the upcomming Orlando Show:

1. The knives that may be displayed and sold are restricted to those made by present voting members, present probationary members, knifemakers who were voting members at the time of their deaths, and knifemakers who were voting members at the time their memberships were terminated.

2. Items that may be displayed and sold are restricted to handmade knives (Refer to Rule 1) and knife-related items, the interpretation to be at the sole discretion of the Board of Directors. Blades, handles, bolsters, and fittings must be fashioned predominantly by hand-controlled operations by the knifemaker. (This excludes materials found in nature which are utilized in their native state for handles or decorative or utilitarian embellishment.) Factory or mass produced components will not be permitted unless each component has been substantially altered, shaped, fitted and finished by hand-controlled operations by the knifemaker.

N2S
 
Originally posted by lifter4Him
Guys, don't hold anything against Gary Randall because of what AG Russell said.
Click to expand...

Dave -

I don't hold anything against Gary, or anyone else for that matter.

My comments were in response to AG's contention that this discussion wouldn't be happening if Gary were here. I strongly encourage Gary Randall's participation, and hope that his input would help to clarify our current perceptions, let us know how he would categorize knives in general, and let us know where he himself believes his knives fall within that categorization. As I said, I remain unsure that using the designator "custom" would be appealing or beneficial to RMK.
 
Hi Brian,
I agree that it would be great if Gary Randall himself were to post here also. I can tell you one thing for sure from what I know of the man and from my very brief commo with him a few years ago-he would do it in a gentlemanly fashion and without the attitude and sideswipes that others of us have displayed. He is a first class gentleman as was his father.

Dave
 
David, I am glad that you agree with me as much as you do and really sorry that you think that my apology was less than sincere. I put it in public because if J thought I was wrong then others might have also. In this case you are wrong. I meant in NO way to put him down.

Para, Thanks for the amount of gentleness with which you answered me. We will not agree on words but I really hope that we can otherwise be friends. I have enourmous respect for the position of Les R. I condider that the respect with which he is held throughout the knife field is remarkable to have been gained in only 15 years, that said I think he is wrong about Randall and while I have said all that I have to say here on that subject, I will be saying it elsewhere and without mentioning Les's name.
 
Gentlemen,

Outstanding posts by all, well, by most of you anyway… ;)

I’ll try to respond to them all, but if I miss any salient points, I’ll do my best to pick them up on the next go round….

Post #1, Dave: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #2, TWG: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #3, Brad: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #4, TWG: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #5, Gus: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #6, Gus: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #7, Dave: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #8, Me: Enough said.

Post #9, N2S: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post#10, Rugger: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #11, Kevin: Agreed, no difference of opinion, with the exception of the official representation part. No one from RMK “Needs” to come down here to the “lowlands”, and they won’t….ever. A.G.’s point was valid, “Don’t hold your breath" Something’s in life are a given, this is one of those things.

Post #12, A.G.: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #13, Gus: Agreed, no difference of opinion. Sorry bud, ya slipped under my radar with regards to the “Co-Moderator” part…my comments were about Les.

Post #14, Dave: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #15, Brian: See response to post #11 above.

Post #16, Brad: I didn’t know that Les was on vacation, and as such will defer further comments directed towards him until his return.

Secondly, I was of the impression that Les was “The” moderator for the “For Sale” forums. Furthermore, I did not “Freak out” as you stated, I offered a difference of opinion.

I have not asked that RMK’s be listed as anything other than what they are, “Handmade”, not “Production” knives. My position on posting, or responding to postings, with regards to RMK’s has not, and will not, change.

If that’s a mantra, so be it, I hope you enjoy the chant, as you’ll be hearing it again and again.

I have no desire to moderate a RMK forum. I have neither the knowledge nor experience.

With regards to common usage of grammar, agreed, the specific meaning of words does change over time, and I congratulate you on being such a trendsetter.

With regards to an individual diminishing the value of custom knives over time; with your arbitrary verbage, you’ll have no one but yourself and your cohorts to blame for this.

I was asking only that RMK’s be classified under “Custom”, and not “Production”, until such time that the appropriate “Handmade” forum was introduced.

And yes, some RMK’s are “Custom”, and as such are as much a custom as any of your “Customs”.

As you so eloquently put it, you can call a knife anything you want, but calling a sow’s ear a silk purse doesn’t make it so, and such is the case with many of your “Customs” Brad.

I’m happy to hear that you have a dictionary, and even more so that you know where it’s located. Supporting your computer desk per chance? ;)

Grok? You’ll have to explain that one to me some time. :rolleyes:

Post #17, DC Knives: Agreed, no difference of opinion. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Post #18, ghostdog: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #19, Kevin: Agreed, no difference of opinion. There is a RMK forum at KFC that gets little traffic. I think it would do much better here, and I’d like to see it become reality.

That in and of itself doesn’t change the fact that some RMK’s are custom, and should be listed as such. Nor does it change the fact that All RMK’s are handmade, and should be listed in the Handmade “For Sale” forum, when and if you create such a forum.

Post #20, Dave: I’m not sure if you’re waffling here big guy, but being that I like most of what you post I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Though I wouldn’t personally reference personal email content in public, many others would and will. If a person felt that a public announcement was due, based on their personal misgivings, I’d support that person if I felt that their intentions were good.

Post #21, N2S: Agreed, no difference of opinion. We’re all in agreement then, you, me, us, the KMG, and all others that agree that many, if not all, “Customs” are handmade. ”Hallelujah, thank you Mr. Pendray” :)

Post #22, Brian: Agreed, no difference of opinion. My understanding is that Mr. Randall classifies the knives put out by the RMK shop as handmade. See response to Post #11 above.

Post #23, Dave: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Post #24, A.G.: Agreed, no difference of opinion.

Well, for the most part, it seems that we're all in agreement. Randall's should be classified as handmades. Being that some are clearly customs, and in lieu of a "Handmade" forum, they should therefore be classified as "Customs", until which time a "Handmade" forum is created.

BTW, my name is Sheldon Wickersham, I'm 40 years old, an Electrical Engineer, Defense Contractor, making Imaging Systems "stuff" for the "Gubmint" by trade. A Knife Enthusiast/Gadfly by choice.

Melvin Purvis was J. Edgar Hoover's "Strong arm of the law" during the 1930's. His bio makes for interesting reading.

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes - and ships - and sealing wax -
Of cabbages - and kings -
And why the sea is boiling hot -
And whether pigs have wings."

- Lewis Carroll, "The Walrus and the Carpenter"
 
We are not in agreement that regular Randalls will be called customs in lieu of anything in this forum at the present time.:rolleyes:.

If you wish to discuss any knives in your collection that are not standard models start a thread here. I sure would like to see some of the Custom Randalls that you talk about pictured here and the differences between them and the standard models that the Randall shop produces and I am sure there are quite a few others that would enjoy them. They are beautiful knives (if they are anything like the very special knives on display at Blade by the Society.

It seems by your posts that you would rather just get some personal attention rather than discussing the knives you are interested in and that is getting old.

All I can add is that maybe you should consider having a knife made your way from a reputable maker. That seems to be the only way you will ever understand the difference that you still fail to see. (see post on the clear this up thread).

There is a Randall Forum on the internet and it is not utilized much.
Seems like that would be a good place for you to pursue your interests and agendas. Why do you insist on bringing the subject here up here? There are not many of us at all who feel that the regular model Randalls are customs.

 
If you still believe that RMKs belong in the same forum with singly authored knives, then we are not in agreement, and you have misunderstood what I have written. Until they have their own forum, they belong in the forums with other knives produced in small shop or factory environments. Right now there are two classes: Singly authored (currently referred to by the industry and in common parlance as custom) and everything else.

You know there's a difference between the knives we collect and discuss here and Randalls. I'm sorry you don't feel that distinction is important, but it's a distinction nonetheless, and one that many of us do find significant.

I will happily and vehemently support efforts to get a "small shop" type forum started, which can include the knives made by all of the super-premium small shop organizations but I will just as happily and vehemently continue to oppose any of them being included in this forum.
 
Originally posted by Gus Kalanzis

If you wish to discuss any knives in your collection that are not standard models start a thread here. I sure would like to see some of the Custom Randalls that you talk about pictured here and the differences between them and the standard models that the Randall shop produces and I am sure there are quite a few others that would enjoy them.

Click to expand...

Gotta disagree, Gus. Changing the color of spacers, or the shape of a butt cap does not make a production knife individual. Should we include Spyderco sprint runs here? Or Benchmade's "Knife of the Month" which have a color or material variation from their standard model? How about the special Bladeforums Sifus? How much variation needs to be made, and how few of the knives should there be? We have a clear delimiter - the number of people who made the knife. Let's not blur the lines by using a subjective measure.

There's a reason we don't see customized production knives here without this same discussion, and that's that they are production knives.
 
Give me a break Brian. I am not talking about spacers, butcaps and handle material nor am I talking about factory runs.
I am talking about the one of's that they do produce on occasions with fantastic engraving and other embelishment. If a thread like that is started it will not be required reading :), but I will not move it. (I did not move the thread on the One of Sebenza a while back and folks enjoed seeing it.)

If a thread on the normal models is started here I will move it.
 
Originally posted by Gus Kalanzis
(I did not move the thread on the One of Sebenza a while back and folks enjoed seeing it.)

If a thread on the normal models is started here I will move it.
Click to expand...

Gus, I'll agree with you until we disagree. That was a nice Seb. A pretty Seb. A beautifully customized, standard issue Seb. The embellishment may have been individual, but the Seb was a normal model. I enjoyed looking at it, and I didn't call for your lynching for leaving the thread, but I do disagree that it belonged here. And I believe that each time you make a personal judgement on how much embellishment makes a production knife custom, it further grays the lines and opens the door for this argument to surface again.
 
Embelishment does not make a production knife custom and I have never made a "personal judgement", private or public statement that it does.

I did not think that it belonged here either and I still do not, but I left it and decided too unless I heard a complaint. Never did

(Off to buy a sifu so I can filework it and post it here :D)
 
AG, thanks for your reply and indeed, I hope we can be friends. I can always agree to be disagreeable peacefully :)

Sheldon, I hope we can be friends too. I am not yours or the Randall companies foe. Please call me Para, most of my friends and enemies do. I only posted my real name to avoid the common charge of 'hiding' behind an alias when I was speaking to Mr. Russell.

I am not trying to create a new meaning for the word custom, nor setting a trend. I am merely pointing out the relatively common connotation of the word in the 'custom' knife world. It has more meaning than just customer ordered. Your Randalls are not the same type of Thing as the knives I collect.

It may surprise you that although I have a number of unique single maker handmade knives, I do not have a single knife that I consider 'custom' ordered for me. I have selected handle material, and blade material, but I have had little design input other than that. Most of my knives have come directly from makers at shows, or from internet custom knife dealers. And none of them bear even a passing resemblence to a sows ear or a silk purse. They are knives, pure and simple.

One of the long time dealers in custom knives is www.nordicknives.com They are a long time major purveyor of Randall knives as well. Nordic Knives makes a clear distinction between the Randall knives they sell, and the other handmade Custom knives made by individual artists.

It is the same at www.arizonacustomknives.com
www.knifeart.com
www.robertsoncustomcutlery
www.bladegallery
www.levineknives.com

et Cetera!

My brothers collect Randalls. I like them a lot. But almost everyone in the knife collecting world understands that there is a difference between a single maker 'custom' knife and a knife made by a Company. It's an aesthetic thing mostly; it is not about trying to influence anyone's perception of value. Since there is little customer input or design change in a 'custom' Randall, it is difficult or impossible to distinguish such items from Other Randall Model whatever knives. They have their own market, and their own collectors. Many collectors of Randall Made knives also collect 'custom' knives. My Randall collecting brothers understand how my knives are different from theirs. It does nothing to diminish their passion for Randalls or their appreciating for mine. They are simply different kinds of the same thing, knives.

I do not need the word 'custom' to describe my knives. They were all made by one knifemaker. Some are unique, some are from a particular 'pattern' that a maker may produce. When I do choose to use the word 'custom' to describe my knives, most here understand what I mean. I call my knives by the name of their makers, Winkler, Tomes, Caffrey, Crowell, etc. If I had any Randalls I would do the same.

It looks like you can sell your knives in the custom fixed blade sales forum. The old single forum was divided into several areas to make it easier to see items of particular interest. It has accomplished that goal even if lots of folks are now trying to sell what are usually called 'production' knives in a 'custom' sales forum. So be it. We can add another sales forum if you must, but it does not seem necessary. But This forum has traditionally been reserved for the discussion of knives made by individuals, not companies like Randall, or Reeves, or Emerson, etc.

You may be interested to know that Les Robertson defines his business as 'custom' knives for a reason. He does not sell any companies work, and is very selective about the individuals whose knives he chooses to sell. Why? Well, one reason is that he is the Only knife dealer I know of who is willing to stand completely behind the purchase value of a knife indefinately. He prides himself on creating value for his Customers, and is particular about the word Custom. He is not anti-Randall, simply extraordinarily particular about the nature of the knives he sells as 'custom'.

I am also concerned about the word. Not because I am trying to twist words to mean something new, but because this useage of the word 'custom' is already mainstream. If you read Blade magazine, or Knives Illustrated, or Knife World, you will see that this more inclusive meaning of 'custom' is common. Have a hard look at the web sites I linked above. You are the one new to BladeForums, and apparently to the world of 'custom' knives. Open your eyes, ears, and mind. You are fighting a needless battle.

In the end, it does not matter who is right and who is mistaken. We all come hear to share our knowledge, learn, and to have fun. You have certainly succeeded in entertaining me, friend. ;)

Para

(btw, grok is a word from the novel Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlin. It means to Know in a way beyond Understanding. I used the word because it is in relatively common useage amongs some people, because it is unlikely to be found in a dictionary, and because I hoped it would make some people smile)

My Handmade Custom Whatever Knives
 
Gentlemen,

Perhaps we are focused on the wrong end of the discussion. I have never argued that Randall Made Knives, as they are currently produced, should be considered custom knives. I have argued that the word custom, as it applies here, has no clear definition. And, I would argue that many so-called custom knives have as much, or less, individual content as Randall Made Knives. I am sure we can toss up a list of thousands of knifemakers and debate each one at length.

Since the word is at best indicative we should follow the example set by Ebay and other high volume sites and allow our sellers to post their items as they think best. The objective is to provide a medium for buyers and sellers to communicate. We should focus on that for we have not been given a mandate to define this controversial issue.

If someone truely want to establish a product that is distinguished by the word "custom", and the Guild definition is to be taken as the guiding priciple behind that product; then the Guild should take steps to trademark the appropriate language, and to institutionalize the process under which individual knifemakers submit their products for certification. Just because John Doe is a Voting Guild Member does not mean that every product generated and sold under his name is a custom knife.

The haphazard suggestions discussed here are and can be unfairly applied. We should not attempt to apply them until we have a clear consensus, and more significantly (and challenging) a clear definition.

not2sharp
 
Gus, Brian, Paracelsus, et al.

Gus, dang it, and I was just about to be nice to you :eek:

For the record, I don't have ANY RMK "Customs", and I never said RMK's were as a whole custom. I DID say that some RMK's were custom, but they are few and far between. I DID say that RMK's were "Handmade", and there should be a differentiation between "Handmade" and "Production" knives...that's all I ever said.

Well, that and in lieu of a "Handmade" forum, and due to the fact that some RMK's are custom, according to YOUR guidelines based on features and customer input; they should be listed as "Customs" until such time that a handmade "For Sale" forum is created for their listing.

I know what "Custom" means, and about 99% of RMK's are NOT "Custom" knives... Furthermore, I didn't want "attention", I wanted clarification. Now, I really do want to talk about "Custom" knives, and NOT RMK's....enough said.

Brian, I agree with you. See above. Enough about RMK's already. My wife commissioned a nail-nick liner lock in Ivory from Jess Horn recently, if that's not "Custom", or a "Custom Custom", I don't know what is.

We're looking into having Ricardo Velarde make us a few Integrals, do they qualify as Customs? I fell in love with Phil Boguszewski's "Cobra" at the Solvang show...and now want one. Does that qualify? We just bought an old stock Bill Harsey "Shiva" as made for Al Mar...does that count? FYI, these knives are HANDMADE knives per Blade magazine.

Do you guys think you have some kind of lock on this whole "Custom" thang, when ya can't even figure it out amongst yourselves? They are HANDMADE unless they are made to a customer's specifications as is my wife's Jess Horn.

Paracelsus, "Grok" See above. I was only attempting to show you, and the others here with opinions similar to yours, that you were "technically" inaccurate in your statements. No harm, no foul, no love lost. *Hugs and Kisses*, your (new) best friend Sheldon, but you can call me Mel... ;)

N2S, what you said..."Agreed, no difference of opinion." Well spoken.

Now, I'm just about done talking about RMK's here. I know that many of you consider your "Handmade" knives to be "Custom". And whereas I'd love to talk with you about the merits of my new found love, i.e. "Handmade" knives, as long as you insist on refering to them as "Customs", I don't see that we'll ever reach an agreement.

When and if you ever want to talk about "Handmades", or true "Customs", then please let me know. In the mean time, I know what a custom knife is, and about 90% of what you're calling a "Custom" isn't.

Personally, I think the "Handmades" you guys collect are about the coolest knives on the market today, and the makers are the best there have ever been. I'm not faulting the "Handmade" knives or the makers, they're great knives!

This is the next avenue that an aspiring knife collector such as myself will pursue, but unless I, or someone else, commissions a maker to make a certain knife to a certain set of specifications; or that maker makes a "One-of-a-kind" knife, that knife will never truly be a "Custom".....ever.
 
Melvin, did not mean to upset you. It is just that over the last couple of days the posts you were making here were not what could be classified (at least in my pointed head) as contributions to a custom forum and I felt it was time for the RMK discussions to end here.
(It also seemed to be the opinion of a few others).

By the way, keep us informed on the renaming of all the "Custom Knife Shows" across the country to "Handmade Knife Shows". I can not wait to hear the reactions from all the makers and purveyors that their knives do not qualify as customs.

Not trying to be a smart *** here. My point is that we all know what the of Custom means. The "handmade" knife industy uses the word differently. Personally I do not like the more liberal use, but in order to communicate effictively and get along with folks I accept it.
It is just a word used to categorize some knives and this particular forum was established to talk about those knives.

Congratulations on the Lake folder, hope you are inclined to post a pic when it is ready.
 
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