The burr again

[brasileiro]

I was wondering about remove the burr at low grit 120~240 grit. The particle arrangement on stones are random, so, the scratches may not match every stroke. Even in light pressure you may not remove it at all.
If you think in medium grit like 400~800 under a magnifier vision, it may happen but my guess is on medium grit leather strop (with compound) may clean the bottom of valley scratches and at medium grit the burr itself is more thin and soft.
If you are going to stabilize an edge (or just finishing it) at low grit, remove the burr and clean it before go to next stone (or not if is the case), how did you do it?

 

[David Martin]

Removing a burr on a coarse edge is more difficult. (below 300 grit) I try to reduce it as much as possible on the final stone. Then take it to
pages on the edge of a book and strop on that the direction the pages run. Even something like denim as this is a more coarse material and can get in the divots between the teeth. As the edge is sharpened finer the burr can be removed on a leather strop with slurry. At grits above 1000 I don't even use slurry. DM

 

[HeavyHanded]

If moving on to a progression just give it a few light high angle passes to remove whatever burr is there. Drop it back down to the original angle for another couple passes at the original angle.

I strop on plain paper when they are that coarse. No, you can't really work both sides of each burr, only the high points. But then each pass effectively only creates the burr once, unless you really lean on it.

You can use circular grind or cross the scratch pattern but these methods also reduce edge aggression. If the stone is somewhat soft such as a coarse waterstone you can often finish with some light trailing passes and not raise a burr.

 

[kwackster]

On 400 grit edges i strop the burr off on a piece of MDF coated with 1.0 micron diamond paste.
Most of the diamond particles get (partially) embedded in the hard MDF surface quickly during stropping, which enlarges their abrasion aggression quite a bit.
After stropping i can also remove (most of) the swarf/metal particles with an old piece of microfiber cloth and some WD40, while the embedded diamond particles stay behind to use multiple times again before i apply some more diamond paste.
In the future i want to try some 1.0 micron spray for the same purpose, as this doesn't have the clay fillers in it that paste does, so it might even work better/cleaner.

 

[on_the_edge]

Why not remove the burr the way Murray Carter does it? Easy and quick.

 

[Lapedog]

If moving on to a progression just give it a few light high angle passes to remove whatever burr is there. Drop it back down to the original angle for another couple passes at the original angle.

I strop on plain paper when they are that coarse. No, you can't really work both sides of each burr, only the high points. But then each pass effectively only creates the burr once, unless you really lean on it.

You can use circular grind or cross the scratch pattern but these methods also reduce edge aggression. If the stone is somewhat soft such as a coarse waterstone you can often finish with some light trailing passes and not raise a burr.

Imagine I am sharpening freehand on my Sharp Maker rods. I am doing two kinds of strokes.

1: Strokes where I move down the rod as I move work the edge. If we look at the scratch pattern on the edge it is almost vertical, perpendcular(ish) to the edge. As you move down he rod the knife is drawn back gradually.

2: Strokes where I do not really run the knife down the rod but rather most the stroke is drawing the knife backwards. Scratch pattern on edge is horizontal, parallel to the edge.

Often when using my Sharpmaker rods freehand I will find myself using both strokes. What if someone sharpened their knife with the second type of stroke so that the scratch pattern was completely horizontal?

Would that be an issue, I wonder.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Imagine I am sharpening freehand on my Sharp Maker rods. I am doing two kinds of strokes.

1: Strokes where I move down the rod as I move work the edge. If we look at the scratch pattern on the edge it is almost vertical, perpendcular(ish) to the edge. As you move down he rod the knife is drawn back gradually.

2: Strokes where I do not really run the knife down the rod but rather most the stroke is drawing the knife backwards. Scratch pattern on edge is horizontal, parallel to the edge.

Often when using my Sharpmaker rods freehand I will find myself using both strokes. What if someone sharpened their knife with the second type of stroke so that the scratch pattern was completely horizontal?

Would that be an issue, I wonder.

In my experience, on a coarse stone you'd be setting yourself up for a poorly performing edge, becoming less of an issue as the level of polish goes up. The burr would still form but be difficult to distinguish from the scratch pattern. The pattern itself would create undercut areas along the edge like a cheap pull-through might.

 

[cbwx34]

Imagine I am sharpening freehand on my Sharp Maker rods. I am doing two kinds of strokes.

1: Strokes where I move down the rod as I move work the edge. If we look at the scratch pattern on the edge it is almost vertical, perpendcular(ish) to the edge. As you move down he rod the knife is drawn back gradually.

2: Strokes where I do not really run the knife down the rod but rather most the stroke is drawing the knife backwards. Scratch pattern on edge is horizontal, parallel to the edge.

Often when using my Sharpmaker rods freehand I will find myself using both strokes. What if someone sharpened their knife with the second type of stroke so that the scratch pattern was completely horizontal?

Would that be an issue, I wonder.

Maybe.

A couple of years ago, Clay (from W.E.) was experimenting polishing bevels using a horizontal stroke. Polish came out nice, but he noticed a decrease in edge sharpness... so he looked under the microscope. Under the scope he could see noticeable damage to the edge... small chipping and roughness along the edge. (Keep in mind it was under the scope... not something he could see or feel, other than in edge performance).

It was an interesting and unusual discovery... I'm not sure they ever figured out the reason... but last I remember, he went back to more vertical strokes to finish the edge.

Edit to add: If memory is right... he was polishing with diamond lapping films.

 

[BK14]

Try to minimize the burr forming in the first place. A small burr can be removed by sliding the blade through a piece of soft wood. Before that, I use very very light strokes on the stone that raised the burr.

 

[me2]

Don't form a burr in the first place. Then there is no need to rice it. Failing that, a couple of high angle passes, like 30 to 40 degrees per side, will cut it off, then alternate strokes with light pressure will shorten the edge. The deburring passes have to be as light as possible.

 

[brasileiro]

Try to minimize the burr forming in the first place. A small burr can be removed by sliding the blade through a piece of soft wood. Before that, I use very very light strokes on the stone that raised the burr.

I read something like that but in my mind, if you remove the burr this way aren’t you chipping the apex?

 

[brasileiro]

Don't form a burr in the first place. Then there is no need to rice it. Failing that, a couple of high angle passes, like 30 to 40 degrees per side, will cut it off, then alternate strokes with light pressure will shorten the edge. The deburring passes have to be as light as possible.

Recently when I’m sharpening a unknow steel I try to minimize the burr as it possible.
It seems like the more I learn and pay attention the more complicated things get.
Edit to add:
Look with attention at bevel, even without a loupe, using diamond stone even with light passes I still can see the division (during strokes) where the stone started and where it stoped. What I mean there seems to be height differences. Sometimes I reach the Burr on belly I.e. and the heel aren’t even with apex formed.
So I have 2 problems now. The burr removal, that I’ll try Clean with higher grit stone and a not smooth continuous bevel. Does it cut? Yes, for sure, but my learning lead me try reach a pretty uniform bevel too.

 

[BK14]

I read something like that but in my mind, if you remove the burr this way aren’t you chipping the apex?

With the soft wood? No, I don’t think so.

 

[Wowbagger]

Why not remove the burr the way Murray Carter does it? Easy and quick.

I like Murray and respect his back ground and craft and his views on thin Japanese style edges and his views on fine tuning the edge angle.
That said . . .
. . . sorry Murray . . .
. . . well . . .
I have never understood drawing that nice fresh edge through cross grain into the side of an old, dirty, gritty (!!! ! ! !), hunk of wood (often that means the side of his sharpening bridge).

Insanity. The equivalent of drawing it through some old dirty carpeting to get that nice ultimate final tree topping o v e r - t h e - t o p . . . dullness.
Murray, Murray, Murray . . . what are you thinking boy ? ? ?
The old Japanese guys were just kidding when they told you to do that when you were a young apprentice.
Think man . . . think (!).

 

[Wowbagger]

Imagine I am sharpening freehand on my Sharp Maker rods. I am doing two kinds of strokes.

1: Strokes where I move down the rod as I move work the edge. If we look at the scratch pattern on the edge it is almost vertical, perpendcular(ish) to the edge. As you move down he rod the knife is drawn back gradually.

2: Strokes where I do not really run the knife down the rod but rather most the stroke is drawing the knife backwards. Scratch pattern on edge is horizontal, parallel to the edge.

Often when using my Sharpmaker rods freehand I will find myself using both strokes. What if someone sharpened their knife with the second type of stroke so that the scratch pattern was completely horizontal?

Would that be an issue, I wonder.

Totally dude.
In the woodworking world, and there are some fairly practical people there because the edges are then used, often to failure THAT DAY and then resharpened to continue working THAT DAY it is fairly easy and quick to observe what works and what doesn't work as well. I mean I have changed the angle on some super blue chisel steel ($500 chisel) when cutting purple heart and the edge went from what appeared to the naked eye as "chipping" (actually folding/dinging) to the edge cutting perfectly and for a long time in huge joints. Just by changing the edge grind angle about two degrees (measured on a guided sharpener) .

These joints (that is a one foot ruler for judging scale).

So it has been "determined" by trial and error by the hand tool woodworking community, pretty much, that the kind of motion on the stone that you describe especially on coarse stones promotes early edge failure due to introducing stress risers that can cause the edge to fold over.

This is all very microscopic and perhaps not that important in a pocket knife but there you go.





PS :Every surface was cut with hand edge tools / no sand paper or power tools have touched this bench.

 

[Wowbagger]

With the soft wood? No, I don’t think so.

Well actually . . .
isn't one tearing the bur off ? And what is left ? Perhaps a non homogeneous "edge" that rises and falls, has questionable geometry ?(too thin in some areas, too blunt in others ?) kind of like breaking glass or tearing paper without folding it first. Might cut stuff, might not but one has lost control of the quality of the edge.

I would rather abrade it off and see it come off in little hairs on the stone leaving an apex with known geometry.

 

[BK14]

Well actually . . .
isn't one tearing the bur off ? And what is left ? Perhaps a non homogeneous "edge" that rises and falls, has questionable geometry ?(too thin in some areas, too blunt in others ?) kind of like breaking glass or tearing paper without folding it first. Might cut stuff, might not but one has lost control of the quality of the edge.

I would rather abrade it off and see it come off in little hairs on the stone leaving an apex with known geometry.

You have a good point here. I try to abrade it down as much as possibly first. Also, I am still very much a novice sharpener so my methods will hopefully evolve and my knowledge and skill does. This is what I do now but it’s likely not the best method.

 

[Wowbagger]

Ha,ha, I guess I could argue the other side of it :
There is no edge sharper than a broken piece of glass.
The torn steel edge is torn along the grain / molecular structure of the blade . . . what could be thinner and sharper ?
But I'm still not a fan of deburing in wood.

I say experiment and enjoy what works best for you. That's what this hobby is all about.
Guys/Gals/People if I don't respond I am now doing really important stuff : eating pumpkin pie with coffee and watching the American Dog Show on TV.

 

[cap'njake]

A plain strop no compound. Work the burr back and forth lightly until it breaks off.

 

[Lapedog]

Totally dude.
In the woodworking world, and there are some fairly practical people there because the edges are then used, often to failure THAT DAY and then resharpened to continue working THAT DAY it is fairly easy and quick to observe what works and what doesn't work as well. I mean I have changed the angle on some super blue chisel steel ($500 chisel) when cutting purple heart and the edge went from what appeared to the naked eye as "chipping" (actually folding/dinging) to the edge cutting perfectly and for a long time in huge joints. Just by changing the edge grind angle about two degrees (measured on a guided sharpener) .

These joints (that is a one foot ruler for judging scale).

So it has been "determined" by trial and error by the hand tool woodworking community, pretty much, that the kind of motion on the stone that you describe especially on coarse stones promotes early edge failure due to introducing stress risers that can cause the edge to fold over.

This is all very microscopic and perhaps not that important in a pocket knife but there you go.

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PS :Every surface was cut with hand edge tools / no sand paper or power tools have touched this bench.

Interesting and thank you for the great answer.

The reason I ask is because I have seen the pull through sharpeners and always wondered what the horizontal scratch pattern would do to the edge.

As I sharpen freehand on my S.Maker rods I will have to remember to hold the rod lower down so I have room to use a more vertical stroke.

I have also wondered because I have seen videos of people using set angle sharpeners on the internet where their stroke is largely horizontal parallel to the edge.