The Chinese are taking over.

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lieferung said:
More like generalizing all of Latin America as Mexico. I had a buddy who used to joke "South America? More like South Mexico!" :D
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that makes sense too. you wouldn't group all of asia together for other products, why try to for knives?

Seiko vs chinese watches? you'd get stoned in watch forums

samsung, sony, and chinese electonics? (although i'm very impressed with taiwanese electronics, and depending on your political stance, i guess one could argue that's china too... but let's be real, we really shouldn't lump taiwan with china when talking production)
 
I'm sure this is going to veer off topic to the point that it gets locked or moved as it's fairly political as it is.

However, I think it's important that we look beyond the Rah-Rah of where things are made. I will concede that the Chinese government is operating at "At all costs..." when it comes to economic growth included piracy of intellectual properties. Barring that, there are other reasons why goods are produced over there.

Nearly 50 years ago, the US started to switch from a production driven nation to one that provides services. Fast forward to today, and when yu look at our trade deficit, we would be even more under the thumb of debt if we weren't exporting services. We are a fully modernized country filled with experts. It's not feasible to pay a man a living wage to screw a nut onto a bolt 8 hours a day when 15 robots can achieve the same outcome 24/7, perfectly. We don't need a guy with nimble fingers. We need an educated tech who can program and service our robots.

Beyond that, we have become a country of innovators. Technological break through happens here. Software, telecommunications, battery technology. Gates, Jobs, Musk, etc. These are the new Fords and Rockefellers of the US.

As a small business owner, I have become a certifiable grouch when it comes to the buying public. The internet, for all the wonderful things it provides has spoiled us. The low hanging fruit of "cheap" has become expected. EVERYTHING needs to be lower priced. Damn the businesses trying to produce the products, trying to pay living wages, trying to operate a brick and mortar store staffed with knowledgeable professionals. I want it cheap, I want it at my door in 2 days, and so-help-me shipping better be free. Value has been replaced by price. There is a substantial difference, but the buying public is willfully blind to it by and large.

We always seem to hear, "Oh not me! I would totally buy a domestic product! If someone made it, I would buy it!"
You know what....no you wouldn't. Consumers want the most cost effective way to obtain goods. For many, buying something manufactured in a sweat shop by a 12 year old justifies the purchase. For many, it's easier to step back into their Way-Back machine and pine away about bringing back manufacturing jobs that we as a nation gave up on a generation ago. It's the reason why there aren't American-made TVs or electronics of most sorts, why Toyota constantly flirts with being the largest automobile manufacturer in the world, etc.

I apologize for digressing.

To bring this back on pseudo topic, not all over sea manufacturing is created equally. I remember reading about how Sal and company purposely toured and searched for the BEST place to make some of Spyderco's knives. Manufacturing them in a factory over there allows them to produce a high end product that is in line with what the market is willing to pay over here, yet they can pay their employees an actual living wage working in a clean factory with benefits. Globalization isn't a dirty word if done ethically.

I do think we are going to see more of an equalizing of pricing in the coming years. As China grows, as earning power goes up, prices of good will as well. It would be happening even faster if the Chinese government didn't mess with currency values, but that's another story. What we are seeing is the expansion of the Chinese working class. 50 years ago, Japan was in China's position. "Made in Japan" was junk. Now "Seki City" gets knife knuts excited.

To sum up my long rant, don't lump all of Asia together. You may very well be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. There are a lot of great products coming out of the best Chinese factories. Boker especially is making some knives and tools so well that if they didn't come with a sticker on the box stating they were made in China, I would have sworn they were German-made.
 
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Steely_Gunz pretty much nailed what I wanted to say.

Breakthroughs happen here. The externally made knives are simply improvements upon existing knowledge.

Technological advances are also the cause of many job related displacements as well. Before I go political, I'll end with this: blaming others for your problems is a one way ticket to failure.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Or you could spend $10 and get a Rough Rider easily comparable to the Case. Heck, given their QC, I'll honestly probably take the Rough Rider over the Case at the same price.

I guess my reaction to this is, so? I think you've either posted this in the wrong place or you're going to have a very difficult time explaining why this adversely affects me as a knife enthusiast in any way.

Right now I have very few Chinese knives in my collection, as they don't make much that I'm interested in. But if legitimate Chinese companies make knives I'm interested in I'll happily buy them, the same way I buy American knives, Japanese knives, Taiwanese knives, German knives, Swiss knives, Italian knives, French knives and Canadian knives.
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The op seems to have feelings against Chinese knives, and is trying to say that we'll all end up having to buy Chinese knives eventually.
I was making a point that if there comes a point where all of the affordable examples of the ultra modern stuff is coming from china, he can always throw features out the window and afford a very basic American made knife if it's that important to him.
 
the only chinese made knives that i like are Reate, WE Knives and Rike. Reate is on a higher level then the other two. they have lots of training from the man himself Todd Begg. Kizer are on a slight level below these three. Ruike and a few others in this range are now far better than anything CRKT or Kershaw make which are the lowest of the low. starting to think crkt is better than kershaw... but i digress. the quality of the budget knives are poor but the newer brands with slightly better budget steel are def better and while QC isnt great its far better than kershaws. (kershaw usa excluded).

i would say i carry more usa made knives than the chinese high end knives. i dont have any allegiance to country of origin. as long as its quality and the materials as advertised (with a decent heat treat) i dont care where its made.

i think right now the Chinese are open to mass producing knives for designers. which is good for the designers and the manufacturing facilitates. as long as its quality and affordable im in. not so much on the cheap budget models tho. those are mostly just junk made by terrible factories. a better factory can make the same knife better at the same cost or a few dollars more.
 
James Y said:
Most of what I wanted to say has already been said, but I'm still giving my .02:

China, Taiwan and Japan are totally different countries. They are different, and the differences DO matter, especially in the case of China. There really aren't as many Japanese-made knives in the U.S. market as there used to be, which is unfortunate. Taiwan-made knives today are NOT the Taiwan-made knives from the '80s.

I get the feeling that OP would have no problem if the same thing were happening, but with knives manufactured in a European country or countries.

Keep in mind that Bladeforums (and the U.S.) has members of countless nationalities and ancestries, and lumping all East Asians together as a monolithic "them" (as opposed to "us") shows a deep lack of awareness, like lumping Germany, Italy and Iceland together as "the same thing" would be.

If you only like American-made knives, then buy only American-made knives. But keep in mind that the world does not operate in a vacuum. It's very likely that the titanium in your American-made frame lock came from Russia.

Jim
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I noticed all flytanium products are listed as made in China. I forget what order, but top 4 producers are Russia, Kazakhstan, China and Japan. Being a strategic mineral, there are probably export quotas in unfinished Ti. I don't know of any American manufacturer that has the ability to cnc their own titanium scales. Hopefully I'm wrong on the last point!
 
I refuse to buy any knives made in China because its generally the same idea as buying products the moment you walk into a medieval shopping square where very subpar venders start hawking their wares into your face. China as a country generally lost my respect due to it's constant thief of intellectual properties of all kinds. I would be GLAD to buy "Made in China" if there were some unique companies that made unique products made no where else in the world. But since China doesn't want to give the world due respect, I refuse to give them due respect in return and support other Asian businesses with my money instead when it comes to buying knives.

My second problem is that in China, cutting corners is not frowned upon but actually encouraged with the Chinese communist government gladly turning a blind eye at it as long as it makes them money and as long as it doesn't explode not just one but twice, killing people and making it international news. I see the Chinese government as the Nаzi of Asia where they will do whatever they can to become a world leader, no matter the price.

I am aware that there are real honest to god knife makers trapped in China, trying to become known internationally because that is where the real market is and I have no problem supporting the custom knife makers. I just want the Chinese government to get out of the way (or best of all, just stop existing). I would LOVE to see the ancient art of steel making and quality control come back that was once upon a time a part of their identity like in Japan. Some of the steels they made, no one can figure out how they made it nor figure out why those steels have yet to degrade after hundreds of years. I want those to come back but NOPE! Chinese government expects profit as #1.

Bloody Chinese buggers.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
I'm sure this is going to veer off topic to the point that it gets locked or moved as it's fairly political as it is.

However, I think it's important that we look beyond the Rah-Rah of where things are made. I will concede that the Chinese government is operating at "At all costs..." when it comes to economic growth included piracy of intellectual properties. Barring that, there are other reasons why goods are produced over there.

Nearly 50 years ago, the US started to switch from a production driven nation to one that provides services. Fast forward to today, and when yu look at our trade deficit, we would be even more under the thumb of debt if we weren't exporting services. We are a fully modernized country filled with experts. It's not feasible to pay a man a living wage to screw a nut onto a bolt 8 hours a day when 15 robots can achieve the same outcome 24/7, perfectly. We don't need a guy with nimble fingers. We need an educated tech who can program and service our robots.

Beyond that, we have become a country of innovators. Technological break through happens here. Software, telecommunications, battery technology. Gates, Jobs, Musk, etc. These are the new Fords and Rockefellers of the US.

As a small business owner, I have become a certifiable grouch when it comes to the buying public. The internet, for all the wonderful things it provides has spoiled us. The low hanging fruit of "cheap" has become expected. EVERYTHING needs to be lower priced. Damn the businesses trying to produce the products, trying to pay living wages, trying to operate a brick and mortar store staffed with knowledgeable professionals. I want it cheap, I want it at my door in 2 days, and so-help-me shipping better be free. Value has been replaced by price. There is a substantial difference, but the buying public is willfully blind to it by and large.

We always seem to hear, "Oh not me! I would totally buy a domestic product! If someone made it, I would buy it!"
You know what....no you wouldn't. Consumers want the most cost effective way to obtain goods. For many, buying something manufactured in a sweat shop by a 12 year old justifies the purchase. For many, it's easier to step back into their Way-Back machine and pine away about bringing back manufacturing jobs that we as a nation gave up on a generation ago. It's the reason why there aren't American-made TVs or electronics of most sorts, why Toyota constantly flirts with being the largest automobile manufacturer in the world, etc.

I apologize for digressing.

To bring this back on pseudo topic, not all over sea manufacturing is created equally. I remember reading about how Sal and company purposely toured and searched for the BEST place to make some of Spyderco's knives. Manufacturing them in a factory over there allows them to produce a high end product that is in line with what the market is willing to pay over here, yet they can pay their employees an actual living wage working in a clean factory with benefits. Globalization isn't a dirty word if done ethically.

I do think we are going to see more of an equalizing of pricing in the coming years. As China grows, as earning power goes up, prices of good will as well. It would be happening even faster if the Chinese government didn't mess with currency values, but that's another story. What we are seeing is the expansion of the Chinese working class. 50 years ago, Japan was in China's position. "Made in Japan" was junk. Now "Seki City" gets knife knuts excited.

To sum up my long rant, don't lump all of Asia together. You may very well be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. There are a lot of great products coming out of the best Chinese factories. Boker especially is making some knives and tools so well that if they didn't come with a sticker on the box stating they were made in China, I would have sworn they were German-made.
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Part of that race to the bottom is people won't pay for quality and keep the product we're very "ohh shiny". If we would buy and use until the product was no longer serviceable then we could bring some manufacturing and have the highly skilled tradesmen we use to have in abundance.

How often do we flip cars, houses, kitchens and kitchen stuff, furniture etc.
 
I would argue that, while made in China, AG Russell and to a slightly lesser extent Rough Rider, Marbles, Colt etc. are great knives being made for American companies who reap the lion share of profit.
Would I prefer them to made here? Of course! But with a dwindling interest in pocket knifes culturally you're not usually going to lure someone in with a $150 - $200 first knife.

I think the direction of the USA knife companies to keep pushing higher and higher is great but I worry that they're leaving the door wide open for China made knives walk right into the pockets of budget concious folks who just want a good knife to cut things.
Now if Victorinox, Mora and Opinel can manage it why can't we figure out how to not have to turn to China *every* time.
 
Yonose said:
I noticed all flytanium products are listed as made in China. I forget what order, but top 4 producers are Russia, Kazakhstan, China and Japan. Being a strategic mineral, there are probably export quotas in unfinished Ti. I don't know of any American manufacturer that has the ability to cnc their own titanium scales. Hopefully I'm wrong on the last point!
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Rest assured, you're wrong about (all of) that.

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Chinese manufacture is just part of the ebb and flow of manufacturing. People might have said that about the US after WWII. They certainly said it about Japan in the 70's and 80's. Just ride with it and enjoy the knives where ever they are made.
 
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