The creative process, I'm worried about it.

There is a correlation between mental illness such as adhd and mood disorders, and creativity. I hate that these conditions are called disorders, because they occur in natural and predictable ways and have benefits that neurotypical people don’t have. A lot of us knifemakers are adhd.

 
This whole thread was pretty much 'TLDR'............

but it struck me......these long posts take a LOT of time to think about, type, read and respond to. That's all time that could be spent creating and innovating. ;):D
 
Willie71 said:
There is a correlation between mental illness such as adhd and mood disorders, and creativity. I hate that these conditions are called disorders, because they occur in natural and predictable ways and have benefits that neurotypical people don’t have.
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That's true, and FWIW, I'm ADHD, and most of the brightest minds I've known in advanced computing are. Many of the most innovative people I know otherwise are also, diagnosed or not. It can be detrimental when it's time to "knuckle down" and grind out a bunch of monotonous work, but the rest of the time, it's synergistic with a high capacity for learning and wide interests.

In fast changing areas of certain types of computing, it's practically mandatory. There are no education paths of any value even from the best schools, when the technology is changing at a pace faster than curriculum can be built for it; I went into the industry full time at 16, without finishing high school, and we gave almost zero favor to any degree, when hiring. In fact, it typically indicated a mindset of someone too concerned with assimilating into the status quo, or too indoctrinated in the "rules", to be effective in an area of research that required constantly challenging and breaking them.


In our craft, where we now have to wear so many different hats, once each worn by a person who apprenticed, studied, and specialized in a very specific component of the cutlery trade, it's been an insane boon, and all it takes is a few minutes walking around blade show, meeting the most innovative or skilled makers, to realize, just how many of us are at least, mildly adhd and/or bi-polar. :P Plenty of information linking the ability to multi-task, with inattentive ADHD. i.e. "deficit of attention" means fundamentally, not being able to stay focused on a single task or idea. Yes, it can get out of control, I envy people often that can just put their head down, and do their work. Or who don't have to make lists, only to forget the list. However, I wouldn't have had the success I've had in various careers at this point, without being the way I am.

There's no shortage of evidence through history of most of the Great artists of the ages, having similar "issues" also, and there are consistently clear links between high intelligence and various "disorders" and drug and alcohol use. Ignorance is clearly bliss, why would we expect the opposite not to be true as well? Personally, I find the fallacy that self awareness leads to enlightenment, to be fuckin' hilarious! I tell my friends all the time, that if you don't hate yourself much of the time, or teeter constantly between love and hate of your work, you're probably not self-critical enough to truly reach the pinnacle of any art, and if you are, it'll probably kill you. Who wants to live forever though, right? ;D
 
J. Doyle said:
This whole thread was pretty much 'TLDR'............

but it struck me......these long posts take a LOT of time to think about, type, read and respond to. That's all time that could be spent creating and innovating. ;):D
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Definitely true John. :P

Although (and I know you're not saying otherwise) if we makers who care about our art, don't take the time, or make the effort to steer it in the direction we feel it should be going, who will? It will go somewhere, with or without us.
 
Fred,

I am a bit younger than you, but I have no fears about the death of creativity. I do worry abut the bifurcation of society along the lines of people who can and do DO or MAKE things and those who simply consume what others make. As you said, at no point in history has information been so readily available. And those of us in our society with a thirst for knowledge and skill have been able to accumulate more than ever before. Those with no interest are not forced to learn in any way. You don't need to know how to make a meal because you can have it delivered. You dont need to know how to repair something because its replacement is cheap and can be delivered in the next 48hrs.

What you see is that a small number of people are more capable than at any point in history (look at youtube and find young people with no formal training building things that would have required a machinist in his 50s or better). For a creatively minded autodidact, the world has never been better. My worry is that a huge chunk of society has had their curiosity lobotomized by a world that caters to nearly every whim.

I started doing woodworking as a very small child. As soon as I was large enough to be placed on a workbench without falling off, I was helping my father in the shop. I started woodturning before I was 10. My dad is an exceptionally good woodworker so I learned well. As far as I can remember, I thought blacksmithing, welding, machining, gunsmithing, etc. were awesome, but those weren't my dad's hobbies, and I didn't really know any blacksmiths, welders, etc. So I didn't learn those skills before I went and grew up. Then the internet, youtube, wikipedia, and countless forums/blogs etc. came into existance. I have now built and worked on a ton of firearms (and I don't just mean assmbled an AR-15 from parts), learned stick, mig, tig, blacksmithing, a bit about knife making, a bit of machining, and countless other things. I don't think I have gotten less creative for it, quite the opposite.

The first welding projects I did probably looked a lot like things I saw in videos that I watched. But pretty rapidly from there, I used the lessons those projects taught me to start trying things that the videos never suggested. The same is true for every other thing I have tried (with the possible exception of gunsmithing). The best bit of it all is the junction where two of these skillsets meet. Welding and woodturning on one peice? Yup, and throw in some blacksmithing as well.

As a kid, a family friend (passed years ago, way into his 90s) who ran a very successful heating and cooling buisness and was a lifelong creator, gifted me a somewhat unique roofers tool from the early part of the 20th century. It was a standard screw driver with a heavy, bulbous cast iron handle (presumably designed to be usable as a light duty hammer). I never used it for roofing, but have found it indespensable for countless other shop tasks. It is one of my favorite tools. And it looks great. It is particularly wonderful for opening and closing cans of finish, but I find new uses for it all the time. Either way, I have never been able to find out what such a tool is called, much less been able to source them. But somewhere along the way, I realized that I could make them, forging and grinding out a nice, large bladed screwdriver, and machinging out a handle from steel, brass or bronze, and welding or braising the two together as appropriate. I have given these as gifts for a few years now.

I don't think for one second that creativity is dying, I think it is being concentrated into a smaller portion of society. That might not be great in some ways (at least not for those whose idea of a hobby is shopping or watching TV), but it means I have seen more exceptional and creative craft work in the last 5 or 10 years than the rest of my life.
 
Fascinating responses! Thank you for sharing your viewpoints.

My son and I have been having this conversation for a month or so. It started when I made the comment that I left enough material on guards, ferrals, butt caps and the like, so I could adjust the pieces as the knife developed. All of you will agree, a 16th inch here a 1/32 inch there can make or break a knife. It can be the difference between great and almost. He stated, " why don't you just make exact drawings and make the pieces fit the drawings" I responded, that is not how I create, on a flat sheet of paper, I do it in three dimensions. It may be I should have paid better attention in art class. :)

Regards, Fred
 
Most people I work with don't really do anything and are only distinguished by the different TV shows they prefer.
I was showing a coworker one of my recent creations (maybe the fifth one he has seen), when it suddenly became clear to me that he thought I was simply designing them and then having them made somewhere.
"what? how can you shape metal at home?...I can see shaping wood, but metal?"
People I know are creative, but mostly in a very digital way.
 
I grew up in a rural setting with parents who thought home schooling was awesome. My uncle lived near by and thought the same. They may have been right since The post office said we lived in Malo Wa population 8 but then we didn't live in town so it wasn't so crowded ;) . The interesting thing is that the 3 oldest of us cousins we required to help build the houses and help with the family business. The younger ones didn't have to spend that time. The younger ones also had internet and cable TV. The funny thing is that they have a little bit different accent. Also they don't have the drive or the skill that the older group does. It's not their fault but it shows a difference in training. Because of my early training I have more work experience than others in my age group.
I also taught welding at a tech college. I was required to teach a class about basic hand tools. I thought I would get my class some extra time in the weld lab. It ended up that I had to go through every hand tool and teach the names of the screw drivers.
I think there is a real difference in manual skills that is growing. I don't know if there is a lack of creativity though. I think the skill gap should be recognized and new training methods should be implemented.
 
My creativity tends to flow when I am sitting in a staff meeting and lose interest (read focus) and just happen to have a pad and pencil/pen with me. I tend to sketch ideas for knife designs. If I like it I will usually further sketch it out in detail and tweak it, then make it in steel.

Thanks to my command leadership over the years for holding repeated, lengthy staff meetings!
 
navman said:
My creativity tends to flow when I am sitting in a staff meeting and lose interest (read focus) and just happen to have a pad and pencil/pen with me. I tend to sketch ideas for knife designs. If I like it I will usually further sketch it out in detail and tweak it, then make it in steel.

Thanks to my command leadership over the years for holding repeated, lengthy staff meetings!
Click to expand...

Military meetings are the perfect place to zone out. Paying close attention in meetings can be hazardous to your health.
 
javand said:
That's true, and FWIW, I'm ADHD, and most of the brightest minds I've known in advanced computing are. Many of the most innovative people I know otherwise are also, diagnosed or not. It can be detrimental when it's time to "knuckle down" and grind out a bunch of monotonous work, but the rest of the time, it's synergistic with a high capacity for learning and wide interests.

In fast changing areas of certain types of computing, it's practically mandatory. There are no education paths of any value even from the best schools, when the technology is changing at a pace faster than curriculum can be built for it; I went into the industry full time at 16, without finishing high school, and we gave almost zero favor to any degree, when hiring. In fact, it typically indicated a mindset of someone too concerned with assimilating into the status quo, or too indoctrinated in the "rules", to be effective in an area of research that required constantly challenging and breaking them.


In our craft, where we now have to wear so many different hats, once each worn by a person who apprenticed, studied, and specialized in a very specific component of the cutlery trade, it's been an insane boon, and all it takes is a few minutes walking around blade show, meeting the most innovative or skilled makers, to realize, just how many of us are at least, mildly adhd and/or bi-polar. :p Plenty of information linking the ability to multi-task, with inattentive ADHD. i.e. "deficit of attention" means fundamentally, not being able to stay focused on a single task or idea. Yes, it can get out of control, I envy people often that can just put their head down, and do their work. Or who don't have to make lists, only to forget the list. However, I wouldn't have had the success I've had in various careers at this point, without being the way I am.

There's no shortage of evidence through history of most of the Great artists of the ages, having similar "issues" also, and there are consistently clear links between high intelligence and various "disorders" and drug and alcohol use. Ignorance is clearly bliss, why would we expect the opposite not to be true as well? Personally, I find the fallacy that self awareness leads to enlightenment, to be fuckin' hilarious! I tell my friends all the time, that if you don't hate yourself much of the time, or teeter constantly between love and hate of your work, you're probably not self-critical enough to truly reach the pinnacle of any art, and if you are, it'll probably kill you. Who wants to live forever though, right? ;D
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Yup. I’ve got adhd, bipolar II, but I haven’t had a hypomanic episode in about 20 years, and I have seasonal affective disorder. These disorders give me very out of the box thinking, and I have a near photographic memory. In my real job, I work with clients who don’t respond to traditional treatments, or very complex cases. 80% of my clients hav adhd or bipolar that wasn’t previously diagnosed.

My hobbies have always been creative. I’ve built musical instruments, bicycles, hot rodded cars, made knives, and for a while got into video and photo editing.

We need to embrace people who are outside of the normal. We have a lot to offer, but get marginalized by people who don’t get us.

I’ve never actually finished a knife. Every one I send out could be improved if I just had another day to touch this or that up.
 
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I'm not sure that "creativity" is necessarily inversely proportional to the amount of information somebody has. In fact, I think I get more creative the MORE info I have.

Then again, maybe there's a difference between creativity and innovation, but I doubt that most innovators and creative "geniuses" are working off of a lack of ideas and knowledge.
 
Fred, I totally understand your point. I think for guys like you who trailblazed custom knife making, it can seem strange to look at the newest generation of makers with so many new options and advantages you didnt have and wonder how they can learn all the little bits.

On the other hand, i am strongly against the idea of "Kids these days." I think its important to realize that every generation has been different, and every generation has said that the kids these days dont get it. In Mesopotamia, 7000 years ago we have records of people saying that kids these days dont know what its like to have to carve in rock, all they do is practice their fancy cuniform in clay, Socrates complained that kids these days are reading and no one learns to memorize any more.

I think that as a general rule, people are roughly equal. The capabilities of one generation are roughly on par with any other, and i also believe that access to information is almost always a good thing.

The way I see it, the huge wealth of information new knife makers have access to will simply speed up the learning curve. I think the masters and most skilled people will always push the boundaries of what is possible, designing their own pieces and inventing new styles, new damascus patterns, new machines and geometries just like they always have. But now, someone with a year or two of experience has easy access to the knowledge that can help them advance from the advanced beginner into a true intermediate level of knife making.
 
Greenberg Woods said:
......In Mesopotamia, 7000 years ago we have records of people saying that kids these days dont know what its like to have to carve in rock, all they do is practice their fancy cuniform in clay, Socrates complained that kids these days are reading and no one learns to memorize any more.

....
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You really should use emojis when you say things like this so everyone can be sure that you're joking and you don't really believe this.;)
 
J. Doyle said:
You really should use emojis when you say things like this so everyone can be sure that you're joking and you don't really believe this.;)
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Im confused what you mean. Though the fact that you used an emoji might mean you are joking... Subtlety in text posts is difficult....

Here is a quote from Socrates' The Phaedrus

"[Writing] will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the show of wisdom without the reality."

Here is another quick comic of some historical "Kids these days" https://xkcd.com/1227/
 
This thread is fascinating. Its interesting to try to understand what makes people tick, it helps me understand what makes me tick.
I was watching a vid by Jordan Peterson talking about the differences between conservatives and liberals, and how really both are important, but in different ways, leading to different life styles.
He was talking about how it applies to creativity. Openness is a liberal trait, which leads to creativity. Conservatism is rooted hard in existing cultural norms.
I mention this because I have a liberal friend who tells me that the "rugged individual" in American culture really didn't amount to much in his opinion (none of us are that special), and me considering myself a rugged individualist (creative).
I just thought that was odd and seemingly in conflict with Peterson's observation because I consider myself pretty darned conservative.

I don't mean to get into liberal vs conservative, but just want to point out that certain political views can stifle creativity and individuality, and that can have a huge influence on the culture.
But grass roots individualism is the counterbalance.

If creativity were dying this forum would also be dying. It isn't. In fact I am amazed at the work the young folks are doing here.
 
Brock Cutlery said:
This thread is fascinating. Its interesting to try to understand what makes people tick, it helps me understand what makes me tick.
I was watching a vid by Jordan Peterson talking about the differences between conservatives and liberals, and how really both are important, but in different ways, leading to different life styles.
He was talking about how it applies to creativity. Openness is a liberal trait, which leads to creativity. Conservatism is rooted hard in existing cultural norms.
I mention this because I have a liberal friend who tells me that the "rugged individual" in American culture really didn't amount to much in his opinion (none of us are that special), and me considering myself a rugged individualist (creative).
I just thought that was odd and seemingly in conflict with Peterson's observation because I consider myself pretty darned conservative.

I don't mean to get into liberal vs conservative, but just want to point out that certain political views can stifle creativity and individuality, and that can have a huge influence on the culture.
But grass roots individualism is the counterbalance.

If creativity were dying this forum would also be dying. It isn't. In fact I am amazed at the work the young folks are doing here.
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It takes an uncluttered mind, to create. The reason focus groups do not focus is they are trying to focus; using a key object or phrase to focus on and in so doing, the brain will be encouraged to spit out an innovative solution to the chosen problem.
It's almost impossible to concentrate in this agitated condition.

Not having a conservative/liberal condition; I tend to meditate, in order to put myself mentally, into a receptive frame of mind, so I can be more creative. In Japanese it is known as mushin, an empty state of mind. Can one be creative on Face Book; maybe?

I think of the Donner family, as rugged individualist, in their own right, but then we know what happened. :)

When I post on a forum, "where does your knowledge lie, on line or in your head ?" the answers vary by age more than any other demographic. It's not conservative or liberal in mind set so much as it is how we were taught to problem solve and to think without bounds. In Japanese it is known as mushin; an empty state of mind.

Regards, Fred
 
Fred.Rowe said:
It takes an uncluttered mind, to create. The reason focus groups do not focus is they are trying to focus; using a key object or phrase to focus on and in so doing, the brain will be encouraged to spit out an innovative solution to the chosen problem.
It's almost impossible to concentrate in this agitated condition.

Not having a conservative/liberal condition; I tend to meditate, in order to put myself mentally, into a receptive frame of mind, so I can be more creative. In Japanese it is known as mushin, an empty state of mind. Can one be creative on Face Book; maybe?

I think of the Donner family, as rugged individualist, in their own right, but then we know what happened. :)

When I post on a forum, "where does your knowledge lie, on line or in your head ?" the answers vary by age more than any other demographic. It's not conservative or liberal in mind set so much as it is how we were taught to problem solve and to think without bounds. In Japanese it is known as mushin; an empty state of mind.

Regards, Fred
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I studied Taoism and Buddhism for many years in my youth, so I understand the empty state. It is important. You can't learn what you already think you know. Good stuff Fred.
 
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