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The Curve of Diminishing Returns in EDC Gear
- Thread starter scubisino
- Start date
I don't find this is particularly true for knives.
My favourite folder is an assisted Kershaw of around $30.
I don't like most folders that sit between $30 and $500. Then I really like one or two above $500.
Fixed blades are to lesser degree somewhat the same, but for them in general grinding precision is more linear to the price: The best performing 9-10" class chopping fixed blade under 25 ounces is probably the Ontario SP-53. It is well under US $90.
I don't like most fixed blades available between the price of the SP-53 and the price of a stainless Randal Model 12 that is at least $1000, often because of the awful clunky unlined Kydex sheaths that are all the rage these days...
In a price range above the SP-53, what sells a big fixed blade for me is features, like point design, edge thickness/geometry, edge-holding, grinding precision, stainless steel, blade coatings, a hollow handle, sawback, sheath design/pouches, and, above all, a smooth and "soft" sheath/knife interaction (is the knife coming out easily and silently, or is the sheath scratching the blade to hell, as the beige leather used to do on some of the top Fallknivens?).
For large fixed blades, most of these things, particularly the grinding precision, the sheaths, and the last item, sheath/knife interaction, seem to gradually just get better and better the more you spend...
Edge holding seems to be completely random in the price scale, some of the worst I have seen being the most expensive fancier steel, particularly the CPM steels in choppers...
So no, I don't think commenting on knife quality by ranking their quality on a chart is of any use whatsoever, regardless of what shape the graph is... What this ignores is that knife quality is often about intangibles, or a combination of near-intangibles, and all those vary from user to user...
Gaston
My favourite folder is an assisted Kershaw of around $30.
I don't like most folders that sit between $30 and $500. Then I really like one or two above $500.
Fixed blades are to lesser degree somewhat the same, but for them in general grinding precision is more linear to the price: The best performing 9-10" class chopping fixed blade under 25 ounces is probably the Ontario SP-53. It is well under US $90.
I don't like most fixed blades available between the price of the SP-53 and the price of a stainless Randal Model 12 that is at least $1000, often because of the awful clunky unlined Kydex sheaths that are all the rage these days...
In a price range above the SP-53, what sells a big fixed blade for me is features, like point design, edge thickness/geometry, edge-holding, grinding precision, stainless steel, blade coatings, a hollow handle, sawback, sheath design/pouches, and, above all, a smooth and "soft" sheath/knife interaction (is the knife coming out easily and silently, or is the sheath scratching the blade to hell, as the beige leather used to do on some of the top Fallknivens?).
For large fixed blades, most of these things, particularly the grinding precision, the sheaths, and the last item, sheath/knife interaction, seem to gradually just get better and better the more you spend...
Edge holding seems to be completely random in the price scale, some of the worst I have seen being the most expensive fancier steel, particularly the CPM steels in choppers...
So no, I don't think commenting on knife quality by ranking their quality on a chart is of any use whatsoever, regardless of what shape the graph is... What this ignores is that knife quality is often about intangibles, or a combination of near-intangibles, and all those vary from user to user...
Gaston
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..... and to expand on that what works best for my expectations. Diminishing return is your EDC "spinning tops" .... :yawn:
trevitrace
Gold Member
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Have you managed to removed your favorite $30 knife from its blister pack or, beyond that, cut anything with it?
As I recall last time you claimed that one as the best knife ever! you had yet to use it for any sort of knife-related tasks.
powernoodle
Power Member
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- 11,969
I have long advocated the idea expressed in the video. Once you reach a certain price threshold, whatever that may be, you get very little objective return. My $450 folders don't objectively do anything better than one of my $150 folders. What they can do is make some people subjectively feel good. Feeling good is not a bad thing. But it does not make the knife cut better or retain an edge longer.
So the video nails it. Once you spend more than X, whatever that is - and for me its maybe $150 - you aren't buying an objectively "better" knife. You are buying the fun times and good vibes of owning an expensive knife.
So the video nails it. Once you spend more than X, whatever that is - and for me its maybe $150 - you aren't buying an objectively "better" knife. You are buying the fun times and good vibes of owning an expensive knife.
SALTY
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I have never yet been bitten but the pocket jewelry bug but do appreciate quality functionality.
In regards to folders, I have the most money invested in Emersons - not that they are terribly high priced but I have so darned many of them. That said, I appreciate, in different ways of course, my AUS8 Cold Steel Voyagers and Buck 110s as much as my Sebenza 25. The only other significant money pit for me is the Spyderco Salt series and I have a gaggle of them for fishing, diving and the like. I really don't have high end folders but have much invested in my meager collection - which I do enjoy both using and collecting.
As for fixed blades, I hit the crest of the curve and stayed there with Beckers - and I have a slew of them. I also enjoy owning Busse and Chris Reeve knives but enjoy the Schrades that I have a beater, loaners and abused 1095 but the Beckers really put the smile on my face.
I said all of that to say this: once you hit the crest of the curve on quality and functionality (and it's early in the price axis) what you are paying extra for beyond that is how big your smile is. Thankfully I smile pretty big before I get too far up the price axis.
Everyone's smile is driven by something different - especially with personal items like knives, watches, etc.
In regards to folders, I have the most money invested in Emersons - not that they are terribly high priced but I have so darned many of them. That said, I appreciate, in different ways of course, my AUS8 Cold Steel Voyagers and Buck 110s as much as my Sebenza 25. The only other significant money pit for me is the Spyderco Salt series and I have a gaggle of them for fishing, diving and the like. I really don't have high end folders but have much invested in my meager collection - which I do enjoy both using and collecting.
As for fixed blades, I hit the crest of the curve and stayed there with Beckers - and I have a slew of them. I also enjoy owning Busse and Chris Reeve knives but enjoy the Schrades that I have a beater, loaners and abused 1095 but the Beckers really put the smile on my face.
I said all of that to say this: once you hit the crest of the curve on quality and functionality (and it's early in the price axis) what you are paying extra for beyond that is how big your smile is. Thankfully I smile pretty big before I get too far up the price axis.
Everyone's smile is driven by something different - especially with personal items like knives, watches, etc.
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Someone forgot to factor in a tiny bit of common sense....
The "law" of diminishing returns is like an IQ test, it doesn't exactly mean anything in particular.
Anyone that ever believed that there was a direct relationship between the price of a LUXURY item and it's quality beyond a point (thought it was infinitely linear) was the fish at the end of the hook....
There are intangibles I will not bother to even list that determine the price of a knife, and they are a much higher factor than percieved quality.
The "law" of diminishing returns is like an IQ test, it doesn't exactly mean anything in particular.
Anyone that ever believed that there was a direct relationship between the price of a LUXURY item and it's quality beyond a point (thought it was infinitely linear) was the fish at the end of the hook....
There are intangibles I will not bother to even list that determine the price of a knife, and they are a much higher factor than percieved quality.
You pretty much nailed it. I might go as far and say I even get negative returns out of my $400+ folders because I'm too afraid to take them out of the house! Therefore I don't even get any actual use out of the damn things like I do with my $100 folders lol!
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I like that he said there are some "gems" out there. That is what the research you try and do is all about, separating the gems, diamonds in the rough, and the POS's of all price ranges. I have bought a knife in the 1K plus category that I would trade straight up for a 500 dollar gem, or even a 200 dollar gem. Sometimes you don't do enough research, you get excited, and bam! POS! Or you stumble upon a new maker that makes amazing knives at great prices, diamond in the rough.
Good video! Good post! Wish I would have known about this forum website when I first started buying knives! Would have saved lots and started with better knives.
Good video! Good post! Wish I would have known about this forum website when I first started buying knives! Would have saved lots and started with better knives.
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- Nov 1, 2000
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I have a $300 rule for knives and a $3000 rule for watches... If the retail price is less than, I'm not interested.
Exceptions are traditional slipjoints.
Exceptions are traditional slipjoints.
It depends. Some knives hold their value fairly well. With that. There will never be the demand for knives as there is for firearms. Most knives (and guns) in my collection, have been bought on the secondary market. With that, I can tell you this-EVERY gun I have ever sold, sold for more than I paid. I've never lost money on a gun, and have never even broken even on a gun. That is the market. Now, I don't buy lasers, tactical lights, and fancy grips, or Cerakote/Duracoat paint jobs, or over priced triggers, aftermarket internals, or over priced glass (In rifles, I usually stick with either Nikon or Leupold, and keep the glass on a sale-Likewise, I sell the ammo seperately, and can generally break even-or make a profit). Regardless of level-from a cheap KelTec, to a high end 1911, if you don't have swat team, "Im gonna be a 1 man army" fantasies, and instead learn to shoot properly, with the tiniest amount of competency, you will NEVER lose a penny on any gun purchase and it's eventual sale.
Be somewhat screwed and patient in your purchases, and smart in your sale, and you will do well every time.
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While I agree with basic thrust of video, I think the graph hides two important factors.
First and most importantly, at any price point, there is a range of quality, not a single level of quality. Some $50 knives are great. Some are not. Ditto for $100 knives and $25 knives. The graph would better if it were two curves representing upper and lower bounds for quality. I also believe the range of quality is wider at lower price points than at higher price points. So much so that one should expect to find some $50 knives that have as much or more quality than some $100 knives. Which is to say, just because a vendor prices a product high doesn't mean it's a high quality item. Retail pricing is not determined by production costs.
Second and very obviously, the graph only makes sense comparing knives of like kind designed for the same purpose. If you need a fillet knife to process fish for your job, a fillet knife of any quality will be better than a gentleman's folder of any quality. Horses for courses.
First and most importantly, at any price point, there is a range of quality, not a single level of quality. Some $50 knives are great. Some are not. Ditto for $100 knives and $25 knives. The graph would better if it were two curves representing upper and lower bounds for quality. I also believe the range of quality is wider at lower price points than at higher price points. So much so that one should expect to find some $50 knives that have as much or more quality than some $100 knives. Which is to say, just because a vendor prices a product high doesn't mean it's a high quality item. Retail pricing is not determined by production costs.
Second and very obviously, the graph only makes sense comparing knives of like kind designed for the same purpose. If you need a fillet knife to process fish for your job, a fillet knife of any quality will be better than a gentleman's folder of any quality. Horses for courses.
powernoodle
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So you agree with the video. Above Price X, few if any gains are made in objective performance and utility.
There is a related theory here, called premium pricing strategy, though it has other names. It is the practice of setting an MSPR artificially high in order to encourage favorable perceptions among buyers. This is basically fakery, and I think it goes on more than we make think. Consider "premium" bottled waters, which just come out of a spigot like all other water. I remember when the full sized Toyota Tundra was released several years ago. Toyota could have fixed the MSRP commensurate with Ford, Chevy and Dodge. Instead, they employed a premium pricing strategy in order to give the impression of quality (though they are indeed quality vehicles). There are economic factors at play here too, because they would make a larger margin on fewer sales, rather than smaller margins on more sales.
But this whole premium pricing strategy turns me off, because its all fake and designed to manipulate how we think. Some knife makers, and we can all guess who, employ this strategy to give their knives an air of exclusiveness and premium quality. Its not that their knives aren't high quality, but the fakey air of "if you have to ask why it costs so much, you wouldn't understand" is offputting. One internet reviewer called them "douche knives" in part for this reason, while still acknowledging their quality. It is premium pricing strategy, and it works.
Obviously written by someone who's never even handled a Sebenza...
I kid.
For whatever reason it's hard finding slip joints in superish steels (cpm 154) unless you go super high end production or custom. I don't mind shelling out extra money for something that is handmade from 'premium' materials.
That and it's fun to have a special snowflake knife or 12.
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Please disregard this person's post. He's a known troll. CPM steels not holding an edge? $30 Kershaws being better than more expensive knives of better materials? LOL Ok, man.
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Yup, Gaston did say this a month ago:
I wonder if he has actually used that sebenza killer yet?
As for EDC gear this sums it up:
I carry a bunch of stuff everyday because I like doing so and what I carry comes in handy. I don't expect others to do the same or feel the same way. It's not rocket science.
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It was very refreshing to see him put the Norseman in the realm of production folders... Because it is 