The Curve of Diminishing Returns in EDC Gear

[jackknife]

I don't think price is much judge of what you get in most cases. Once you get a certain degree of effectiveness from a tool, it starts getting pretty small gains for the dollar. It all depends on where you are coming from. Remember, we don't think like normal people, we're obsessed knife nuts. To most of the rest of the world, the price of a Sebanza is ridiculous in view of the fact that most of the rest of a world makes do very well with a Jarbanza.

A knife is not rocket science, but a simp tool. How much better will a CRK cut a piece of rope than a Douk-Douk or Opinel? If it cuts the rope, then all is well. Yes, you will get a certain amount of better steel with a higher price, but how much better?

Too often, a high price means bragging rights, pure and simple. I've had high end and low end knives, and most things in between. In some cases, a more expensive knife gave me better edge holding and better fit and finish. In some other cases, the 200 dollar knife didn't cut any better than a 10 dollar mora. But, it did look neater and gave a pride of ownership, if that is important.

 

[jonnyt16]

I have a $300 rule for knives and a $3000 rule for watches... If the retail price is less than, I'm not interested.

Exceptions are traditional slipjoints.

You're missing out on a lot of great knives man!

 

[Charlie Mike]

You're missing out on a lot of great knives man!

I do own a pair of CS Rajah2 and a ZT0630 but for a knife to really fit my desires these days, custom custom is the only way.

I own less than 30 knives.

 

[pinnah]

I don't think price is much judge of what you get in most cases. Once you get a certain degree of effectiveness from a tool, it starts getting pretty small gains for the dollar. It all depends on where you are coming from. Remember, we don't think like normal people, we're obsessed knife nuts. To most of the rest of the world, the price of a Sebanza is ridiculous in view of the fact that most of the rest of a world makes do very well with a Jarbanza.

A knife is not rocket science, but a simp tool. How much better will a CRK cut a piece of rope than a Douk-Douk or Opinel? If it cuts the rope, then all is well. Yes, you will get a certain amount of better steel with a higher price, but how much better?

Too often, a high price means bragging rights, pure and simple. I've had high end and low end knives, and most things in between. In some cases, a more expensive knife gave me better edge holding and better fit and finish. In some other cases, the 200 dollar knife didn't cut any better than a 10 dollar mora. But, it did look neater and gave a pride of ownership, if that is important.

Carl, well put.

I can only add that I think "functionality" and "quality" are somewhat different concepts. As an engineer, functionality is pretty easy for me to get my head around and it's a dirty little secret of the lab that design typically trumps material and workmanship when meeting most functional requirements. Very easy to over-develop and over-spend on polishing the stone in a manner that doesn't really provide functional benefit. The Douk-Douk is a good slice due to design, not because of quality of manufacture. Ditto the Mora with respect to wood working.

I find quality to be a harder thing to get my head around. Not to get all philosophical about it but the question, "What is quality?" sits at the heart of Pirig's epic "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". This is a rabbit hole that is very, very deep but well worth the trip. Having racked up enough years in this life and having owned enough stuff, I no longer worry too much about things that "look neater" or that give "pride of ownership". Or better to say, I find greater pride of ownership in well designed items that excel at performance (where performance is understood in a heartless engineer's sense of good enough). That other stuff isn't what I consider to be quality anymore. Just colors of money and self affirmation.

 

[Duper]

I very much enjoyed this thread. Food for thought. Thanks for sharing.

Now why is it I want a new Benchmade 940-2 when I already have an original 940. G-10 over aluminum> I have other G-10 knives. Same blade shape and steel. Marginally lighter weight. But darn I still want it! Up here in Canada it will be over $250 CDN shipped to my home.

,,,Mike in Canada

 

[stabman]

The returns diminish, but are still there.
So if I spend more, I get more.

Unless I choose poorly, and buy overpriced crap...don't buy overpriced crap.

 

[AreBeeBee]

...Having racked up enough years in this life and having owned enough stuff, I no longer worry too much about things that "look neater" or that give "pride of ownership". Or better to say, I find greater pride of ownership in well designed items that excel at performance (where performance is understood in a heartless engineer's sense of good enough)....

I pretty well agree with this. I personally get much more enjoyment out of a simple inexpensive item that performs above its weight, where "weight" is some mixture of purchase price, clever design, and well-done manufacturing. Moras are an example of this, as are Opis, and (for me) even the humble 4-blade camper for the most part. So too are Parker Jotter ballpoints, and many other items I could name.

On the other hand, an expensive, well-made, well-designed, good-looking [fill-in-the-blank] is likely to leave me cold, despite its virtues, because the outcome is entirely predictable from what went into it.

Maybe the concept I'm trying to express is being surprised by unexpected quality. And that's something you'll find most often well down the expense curve.

 

[JR88FAN]

So you agree with the video. Above Price X, few if any gains are made in objective performance and utility.

There is a related theory here, called premium pricing strategy, though it has other names. It is the practice of setting an MSPR artificially high in order to encourage favorable perceptions among buyers. This is basically fakery, and I think it goes on more than we make think. Consider "premium" bottled waters, which just come out of a spigot like all other water. I remember when the full sized Toyota Tundra was released several years ago. Toyota could have fixed the MSRP commensurate with Ford, Chevy and Dodge. Instead, they employed a premium pricing strategy in order to give the impression of quality (though they are indeed quality vehicles). There are economic factors at play here too, because they would make a larger margin on fewer sales, rather than smaller margins on more sales.

But this whole premium pricing strategy turns me off, because its all fake and designed to manipulate how we think. Some knife makers, and we can all guess who, employ this strategy to give their knives an air of exclusiveness and premium quality. Its not that their knives aren't high quality, but the fakey air of "if you have to ask why it costs so much, you wouldn't understand" is offputting. One internet reviewer called them "douche knives" in part for this reason, while still acknowledging their quality. It is premium pricing strategy, and it works.

I agree with the video 100%

Just pointing out that there is a difference between quality and "value"

Quality has a limit, value is mostly subjective and has zero limit. It is absolutely relative.

Regardless of what you want to name the 101 reasons the value of something is what it is, it's really irrelevant, and as simple as what someone is willing to pay for it, and their reasoning for paying that amount.

 

[JR88FAN]

The returns diminish, but are still there.
So if I spend more, I get more.

Unless I choose poorly, and buy overpriced crap...don't buy overpriced crap.

The defintion of "overpriced crap" is really subjective...

List 10 knives you think are "overpriced crap" and you will find that out quickly.

The issue here is to not follow the herd, but rationalizing what you like/don't like and why you believe it is or isn't worth the asking price.

Many of us can't live without a knife as a tool we use everyday. We also love these tools for many reasons and become hobbyists...collecting, using, and enjoying our knives.

How do you stuff that into a "diminishing returns" conversation?!

 

[tiguy7]

Carl, well put.

I can only add that I think "functionality" and "quality" are somewhat different concepts. As an engineer, functionality is pretty easy for me to get my head around and it's a dirty little secret of the lab that design typically trumps material and workmanship when meeting most functional requirements. Very easy to over-develop and over-spend on polishing the stone in a manner that doesn't really provide functional benefit. The Douk-Douk is a good slice due to design, not because of quality of manufacture. Ditto the Mora with respect to wood working.

I find quality to be a harder thing to get my head around. Not to get all philosophical about it but the question, "What is quality?" sits at the heart of Pirig's epic "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". This is a rabbit hole that is very, very deep but well worth the trip. Having racked up enough years in this life and having owned enough stuff, I no longer worry too much about things that "look neater" or that give "pride of ownership". Or better to say, I find greater pride of ownership in well designed items that excel at performance (where performance is understood in a heartless engineer's sense of good enough). That other stuff isn't what I consider to be quality anymore. Just colors of money and self affirmation.

If you're happy with good enough, that's fine. I am excited by 3-D printed Titanium handles and blades made out CPM-S125-V. Modern manufacturing techniques and innovative materials ring my chimes. Why not try them out? I may not need to slice a mile of cardboard, but it's nice to be ready.

 

[whp]

So you agree with the video. Above Price X, few if any gains are made in objective performance and utility.

There is a related theory here, called premium pricing strategy, though it has other names. It is the practice of setting an MSPR artificially high in order to encourage favorable perceptions among buyers. This is basically fakery, and I think it goes on more than we make think. Consider "premium" bottled waters, which just come out of a spigot like all other water. I remember when the full sized Toyota Tundra was released several years ago. Toyota could have fixed the MSRP commensurate with Ford, Chevy and Dodge. Instead, they employed a premium pricing strategy in order to give the impression of quality (though they are indeed quality vehicles). There are economic factors at play here too, because they would make a larger margin on fewer sales, rather than smaller margins on more sales.

But this whole premium pricing strategy turns me off, because its all fake and designed to manipulate how we think. Some knife makers, and we can all guess who, employ this strategy to give their knives an air of exclusiveness and premium quality. Its not that their knives aren't high quality, but the fakey air of "if you have to ask why it costs so much, you wouldn't understand" is offputting. One internet reviewer called them "douche knives" in part for this reason, while still acknowledging their quality. It is premium pricing strategy, and it works.

It does work. But to some of us , functionality is the most important virtue in a knife.
And good value for the money drives the purchase.

 

[ursamajor]

I do own a pair of CS Rajah2 and a ZT0630 but for a knife to really fit my desires these days, custom custom is the only way.

I own less than 30 knives.

I can appreciate that, and I do enjoy, and am subscribed to your YouTube channel. I know your criteria, but having a feel for the style of blades you like, I do think that in hand, you would enjoy a 3V Nightfall Master Tanto. The knife is a nice, compact package of big hurt. I just got one recently, and believe it has better lines than the older generations-even the San Mais. I like that they brought the edge lower. It is the best production slicing, sharpened pry bar/spike I've ever played with.

And, while I paid $160 for mine, if you REALLY want to pay $300+ for it, you can buy it directly from Cold Steel ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Charlie Mike]

If CS wants 300 for it MSRP, then it falls within my guidelines

 

[ctrsurf]

I do own a pair of CS Rajah2 and a ZT0630 but for a knife to really fit my desires these days, custom custom is the only way.

I own less than 30 knives.

Firstly, super awesome meeting you at the Plaza show last Saturday!! I was pleased to see that you indeed had your customized TGLB right on your belt! IMHO, if next years Plaza show falls on the same wknd as the truly incredible Huntington Beach air show, you really owe it to yourself to make it down there one of the 2 days!

Secondly, I concur with you about quality vs quantity philosophy! I enjoy my Delica and Dragonfly sprint HAP40s, but this year I've really been whittling down my collection to have fewer, nicer (to me) knives that I really really enjoy, and getting rid of most lower enders & knives I didn't use or love... I'm nutty and I actually keep tally of what I've spent & sold all my knives for, and I've found that this direction has actually LOWERED the overall price of my collection! (Several mid-price knives add up quick)
For example: having gone from 3 to just 1 favorite Mammoth Bark Sebenza makes me feel more justified to carry and use it than having 3 that I want to keep pristine.

Keep up the good fight 1 day at a time brother!

 

[GatorFlash1]