The Damasteel Got Here !!!!

R

rlinger

Joined
Mar 29, 2002
Messages
4,591
I never expected it to arrive this quickly. Veterans Day and all I still got it two days earlier than my best hopes. I got a piece of Damasteel for my next knife and a 27 inch bar of RWL-34. My spirits are lifted now. I had been down because of a bad deal I made on some amber I was hoping to use on a knife. That was my fault because I didn't know anything about amber and just got the wrong stuff for the wrong purpose.

I am anxious to do some HT trials on the RWL-34. Its play time again :).
 
I'll do that. The analysis I've seen is that of ATS-34 except that RWL-34 appears to have a tinge of vanadium. The HT specs at first glance appear to be that of ATS-34 but a closer look reveils a real difference(s). What I plan is to HT a sample using my, to date, favorite ATS-34 recipie and Rockwell, then HT a sample by their specs and see how well I can track their Rockwell. A difference that could be significant is I will not be using their recommended cryo temperature of only -80 F. I will deep cryo instead, initially anyhow.

It is an added adventure in that the manufacture process of RWL-34 is foriegn to that of ATS-34 and I am especially interested to see how the Rockwell compares to a tried ATS-34 HT.

I will post my limited findings, good and bad. If things turn out promising a grain analysis by someone here amongst us that is proficient at that would certainly be welcome by me.

RL
 
Damasteel is basically a powder verrsion of ATS-34 and Sandvik 12C27. Damasteel has an excellent book about their products including extensive heat treating information. I believe you can buy the book directly from Damasteel's website, it's not expensive and well worth it!

In my experience Damasteel makes an excellent cutting knife that holds its own against all but the higher alloyed CPM steels and gives people a chance to have a low maintanence, stainless Damascus using knife at a price substantially less than hand-forged stainless Damascus. The only drawback ist that Damasteel, being an industrial product, can be bought by anyone, so the exclusive quality of hand forging is lost.
 
I am in love with Damasteel and RWL-34. I am a forged carbon steel type of maker, but the worth of this stuff has me quite impressed. Think of RWL-34 as the "beginner's" CPM steel. Easy to grind, doesn't tear up tooling and the performance is pretty darn good. Also, is not too hard to resharpen.

I don't have the exact temperatures, but my heat treater does the HT exactly the same as for ATS-34 with a cryo and triple temper. It doesn't produce any difference in terms of abslute hardness. Both come up 60-61HRC. But at that hardness, I find RWL-34 tougher and better edge holding than ATS-34. It also takes a fantastic finish if you do your bit, when bead blasting or hand rubbing. It has to do with the dead even particullate metallurgy.

I would never use ATS-34 if I had a reliable supply of RWL-34. The patterns in Damasteel are eye-popping, but some people think that they are so good, so even that they can have a slightly "sterile" feel to it. Its kinda like the old compact disc vs. LP records debate. Jason.
 
It looks like I was writing my reply as Kevin was posting his. I just looked and I think we used different words, but effectively said the same things ... :D Is that called reinforcing a point ? Jason.
 
That was just fine. They were similar but each contributed some more detail in areas. Jolly good and I am getting ready to HT my first sample piece of RWL-34 this evening. Already have it in the foil and may have some results to post tomorrow or Monday evening. I am working on a customr computer this weekend and am slipping in here for a moment or two periodically as able.

RL
 
Well, I was able to get one test piece heat treated and Rockwelled. Tomorrow evening I hope to start another.
----------------------
Test piece is RWL-34, 3/4" X 1 1/2" X 0.138"

Test piece was foil wrapped and placed in cold oven.
---------

Equalize: Ramp to 1410 F. / soak 7 min.

Austenitize: Ramp to 1950 F. / soak 22 min.

Rapid air quench to handling temp.

Still air cool to room temp.

Deep cryo: 19 1/2 hr.

Double temper: 475 F. / 2 hr. 15 min. per
-----------

Rockwell: 62 HRc
-----------

This same procedure was used recently by me on a ATS-34 blade and it Rockwelled 61 HRc.

The next RWL-34 test piece will be heat treated using one of Damesteel's heat treat examples.

RL
 
Okay, just finished heat treating a sample of RWL-34 using one of Damasteel's HT examples.

The example I followed is as follows and mimics the number IV HT example found at http://www.ssdamascus.com/technical.html :
------------------------------------
Test piece is RWL-34, 3/4" X 1 1/2" X 0.138"

(I foil wraped the test piece and placed it in the cool oven)

Equalize (not specified by their example): ramp to 1410 F. / soak 7 min.

Austenitize: Ramp to 1980 F. / soak 12 1/2 min.

Rapid air quench to handling temp.

Still air cool to room temp.

Single Temper: 350 F. / 2 hr. 10 min.

Deep cryo (< -300 F.): 15 min.
--------------------

Rockwell: 62 HRc
--------------------

Their example for this HT (their example # IV) proclaims a Rockwell of 63 HRc for RWL-34.

I hope someone checks the Damasteel specs. to see if I understand them correctly http://www.ssdamascus.com/technical.html . I tried to understand them the best I could. From all I could determine they are calling for a cryo of only 15 minutes and only after a temper and that they specify only a single temper. Later on they explain a HT for their damascus and it shows some different specs for that.

With all that there are three things about this HT example I would be reluctant to do for a real blade of high alloy stainless such as this: temper before cryo, temper below 400 F. and cryo for such a short period.

Two things in closing: I will be scoring and breaking the two samples and plan to post a link to pictures of the halves break surfaces, and I noticed that Rockwell testing showed that the last example (this one) seemed more consistant in hardness as Rockwell testing progressed. The first HT example, while predominately tested 62 HRc, tested a couple times at 61 HRc out of about 7 or 8 testings. All five Rockwell tests of this latest test piece consistantly read 62. As I stand now and without knowing more than I do yet I would guess that the shorter soak time at austenitizing may be responsible for the higher degree of consistancy. However, and I hope not, it could be the temper before cryo.

RL
 
I have had good results on damasteel with a similar method to what you just used. 1975F, quench, 350F temper, then overnight in dry ice and then another 350F temper. I haven't tried RWL 34 yet.

I will never end with a cryo treatment, I think you need a final temper. When and if I buy some more Damasteel, I will probably cryo as part of the quench prior to tempering.
 
Cryo of stainless after temper is foriegn to me now that Paul Bos advised me otherwise. My mind set is cryo, temper. Simple high carbons: temper (or snap temper), cryo, temper.

I also have been tutored not to temper below 400 F. and I will adhere to that until most convincingly shown otherwise.

Thanks Steve for sharing your HT experience with the Damasteel. Keep'em coming.

RL
 
Roger how long does it take for your Oven to
get from 1410 to 1950 ??
I'm thinking for an edge at about .025-.030 your getting a
longer soak time than needed on the edge.
causing you to have to temper at a higher temperature.

the way I treat is, I target 1850
( keeping in mind this is my way and the way I do it with my oven.)
my even heat RampMaster is slower on recovery than I'd like so
I preheat to 1950
put my blades in ( doing it fast) I loose about 100 deg's
once I recover to 1900 I start my count of 15min's. (these are ss wrapped )
after the 15 min's I pull them out and put them into a
Coffee can and blow compressed air into it
to help cool them..
once I can handle them with
welding gloves I'll unwrap them and I'll do any straightening I need to do
but do it quick..cool to room temp then temper, cryo, and re temper..
My Dewar is a small lab Dewar and 10 pounds will be gone
the next day so my blades will soak over night and
get a slow recovery to room temp the next day...

I've found that with a longer the soak time at critical the higher the
temper temp you'll have to get to get a target Rockwell reading..

I don't put a blade into a cold oven
two reasons
one you'll get a longer soak time with a slow oven.
two I don't want to wait for the oven to cool to room
temp to put more blades in..

this way I can do one blade or many more and get
the same results either way with out the down time...

I temper, cryo, and then re-temp at 430 deg.on the
2nd temper. keeping in mind this is 154CM
the shorter soak time I believe is giving me a lower
Rockwell at the spine with still good edge holding at
the edge with a bit more Rockwell at the edge because
of the edge being thinner and it will quench
faster too.... just my 2 cents
 
Dan, thanks pal. The reason I ramp the steel from cold is I want to go through a equalizing cycle before reaching target temp.. True though, I could pre-heat to equalizing temp. and place the steel in then. It would defeat the equalize if I pulled the steel after equalize and waited for target temp. before returning steel to oven and I have not convinced myself that ramping the steel to equalize temp. will hurt the HT.

I would guess our recovery times are about the same since we both have the same oven except maybe for size. Mine is the 18 inch model. I do like it too. It recovers slowely though, as you state.

Soak timing is most essential and I continue to play around with that, but only in small changes at a time.

For air quenching I tryed using my air compressor in a coffee can but my compressor is too lacking. I ended up putting two cans together with both ends open and a fan at the bottom. I hang my blade in the can assembly with the fan forcing air around it.

RL
 
Okay, I think I may have learned a couple things about how not to break steel for grain analysis. Maybe I should have made my score lines straighter and probably it might be best the next time to lock the steel in vise with the score line close to the vise jaws instead of hanging way out in the air. So laugh. I did.

Anyhow, here they are: http://riflestocks.tripod.com/steelgrain1.html

The top row is the piece I first heated treated as described above (the 1950 F. / 22 min. one).

I hope the grain experts can comment so we all can learn something here. That's okay. Laugh. I almost knocked the TV screen out when that first one went flying. I did have saftey glasses on. The second one I got wise and covered it with a cloth; so there!:confused::eek:

RL
 
Originally posted by rlinger
Dan, thanks pal. The reason I ramp the steel from cold is I want to go through a equalizing cycle before reaching target temp.. True though, I could pre-heat to equalizing temp. and place the steel in then. It would defeat the equalize if I pulled the steel after equalize and waited for target temp. before returning steel to oven and I have not convinced myself that ramping the steel to equalize temp. will hurt the HT.

I would guess our recovery times are about the same since we both have the same oven except maybe for size. Mine is the 18 inch model. I do like it too. It recovers slowely though, as you state.
RL
Click to expand...
Roger
keep in mind these are just my opinons I'm still learning too,,
is the equalizing cycle making
any difference in the Rockwell?
I'm thinking it should not?
I don't equalize,, if I do get a warp
( which is not much of one if I do)

I'd just straighten it.
so after the equalizing cycle ramping up you will get a
longer soak time then I do for sure.
the critical temp is lower than 1950 but On my sheet
1950 is recommended.
so I've played with this..given my oven timing.

My oven is 26" inside, so recovery would be slower than your''

you're right not to pull the steel once you've started the heat treat.
I'm just not convinced of enough benafit you may get in
equalizing SS,, for the difference
in time and expense over just straightening if you should get a warp.:confused:

keep up the good work it is all very interesting for sure..
time in many of the stages seem to very things greatly.

edited to add that link is not working for me?
http://riflestocks.tripod.com/steelgrain1.html
 
Dan, I have gotten into a habit of equalizing if I can find temp. specs for equalizing the type steel being heat treated. The only real thing that I think I understand about equalizing is that it helps prepare the steel components or some of the components for austenitizing and that equalizing too long can have unpredicatable or adverse effects. I can not connect the relationship between warp and equalizing.

Yes, the ramp time between 1900 F. or there abouts and the target temp. for ATS-34 (in this instance RWL-34) is a factor and I may be soaking too long at 22 minutes because of that. I have been dropping my soak times down little by little on steels at these higher temp's. The 12 1/2 minute soak of test piece #2 may be saying alot since it Rockwelled so consistantly about its surface.

I hope someone like Mete and others will look at the grain pictures I posted here yesterday and give us some observations.

EDIT: I tried the link here today and it worked and I also tried it at the bank on one of their machines and it worked. I don't have any good ideas why it won't come up for you. Try again.

Roger
 
The link is still not working for me here?? it just says

The page cannot be displayed
The page you are looking for is currently unavailable. The Web site might be experiencing technical difficulties, or you may need to adjust your browser settings.

your Banner just has a big X in it too??
:confused:
 
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