-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
The Damasteel Got Here !!!!
- Thread starter rlinger
- Start date
. Quench out of the packet is where it is though. That is the big blue sky, the pot at the end of the rainbow.
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2003
- Messages
- 15,288
Samples 8 and 8A have the problem of different textures on different sides of the samples. That certainly would invite warping in a knife. The results should at this point be tabulated for ease of reading.I'll have to try to go through all of it and get some conclusions. I wish I could see your equipment and procedures.
Gentlemen,
This has been and incredible experience for me. I have been following this thread like an expectant parent.
Dan, I admire your tenacity for seeking out the truth.
I admire as well the fact finding fortitude and brilliance of the others. My hats off to all!! I believe the bridge you are all building many will cross.
Thank you all for this unbelievable learning experience.
Paul
p.s. The difference between the rookie and the professional? Is the professional knows whats going on with his product at any given time. That why they have superior results.
This has been and incredible experience for me. I have been following this thread like an expectant parent.
Dan, I admire your tenacity for seeking out the truth.
I admire as well the fact finding fortitude and brilliance of the others. My hats off to all!! I believe the bridge you are all building many will cross.
Thank you all for this unbelievable learning experience.
Paul
p.s. The difference between the rookie and the professional? Is the professional knows whats going on with his product at any given time. That why they have superior results.
Mete, I'll shoot you off some pictures of the various items I have been using to do these heat treatments. Maybe I can include a picture of how I hold the steel in quench.
Mete, the parts of the break that you have been talking about always occur on the side of the piece that the hammer contacts (always).
Thanks to all for encouraging me on.
RL
Mete, the parts of the break that you have been talking about always occur on the side of the piece that the hammer contacts (always).
Thanks to all for encouraging me on.
RL
I am still restless about this and have decided I need to do another oil quench but quench outside the foil packet. I will heat the steel foil wrapped and take what ever time is needed to quickly remove the steel from the packet to oil quench it. I will quench it as I would any knife blank by not simply dropping it into the oil but rather hold it with tongs and move it within the oil in a cutting motion. Other than that, I will use the same heat treat specifications as before and I will go back to the 7 minute equalize soak.
I am in the middle of making a knife right now (not RWL-34) and it may be a day or two before beginning this next RWL-34 HT test.
RL
I am in the middle of making a knife right now (not RWL-34) and it may be a day or two before beginning this next RWL-34 HT test.
RL
Just did a RWL-34 sample by removing from the packet before quenching. It was quenched in 141 degree F. oil and at oil temperature was placed in pre-heated snap temper where it resides now.
The steel was orange in color by the time I got it into quench. I have a good feeling about the quench even though it took a few seconds to remove the steel from the packet (a pair of kitchen sissors and a pair of tongs). Results tomorrow evening (12/20), but I may post the snap temper Rockwell this evening.
EDIT: Rockwell after snap temper tested 59.5
RL
The steel was orange in color by the time I got it into quench. I have a good feeling about the quench even though it took a few seconds to remove the steel from the packet (a pair of kitchen sissors and a pair of tongs). Results tomorrow evening (12/20), but I may post the snap temper Rockwell this evening.
EDIT: Rockwell after snap temper tested 59.5
RL
RWL-34 Heat Treat Sample #8B:
This one removed from the foil packet before oil quenching.
-----------------------
(0.75 X 1.5 X 0.138 inch RWL-34, foil wrapped and placed in cool oven)
Ramp to equalize
1400 F. / soak 5 minutes
Ramp to target
1950 F. / soak 25 minutes
Oil quench after removing from the foil packet (took about 12 seconds to get into quench). Oil temp.: 141 F.
At oil temperature snap temper immediately: 350 F. / 1 hour
Deep cryo: 20 hr.
Temper after still air warming to room temp.: 550 F. / 2 hours
Temper: 550 F. / 2 hours
------------------------
Rockwell after snap temper: 59.5 HRc
Rockwell after deep cryo: 64 HRc
Rockwell after first temper: 61 HRc
Rockwell after final temper: 61 HRc
------------------------
Fracture Picture: http://riflestocks.tripod.com/steelgrain8b.html
Included is a picture of sample #7A. #7A was oil quench without having to take time to cut the packet and remove the steel before quenching. It was austenitized in a open ended packet and the steel was simply dropped out of the packet into the oil immediately.
RL
This one removed from the foil packet before oil quenching.
-----------------------
(0.75 X 1.5 X 0.138 inch RWL-34, foil wrapped and placed in cool oven)
Ramp to equalize
1400 F. / soak 5 minutes
Ramp to target
1950 F. / soak 25 minutes
Oil quench after removing from the foil packet (took about 12 seconds to get into quench). Oil temp.: 141 F.
At oil temperature snap temper immediately: 350 F. / 1 hour
Deep cryo: 20 hr.
Temper after still air warming to room temp.: 550 F. / 2 hours
Temper: 550 F. / 2 hours
------------------------
Rockwell after snap temper: 59.5 HRc
Rockwell after deep cryo: 64 HRc
Rockwell after first temper: 61 HRc
Rockwell after final temper: 61 HRc
------------------------
Fracture Picture: http://riflestocks.tripod.com/steelgrain8b.html
Included is a picture of sample #7A. #7A was oil quench without having to take time to cut the packet and remove the steel before quenching. It was austenitized in a open ended packet and the steel was simply dropped out of the packet into the oil immediately.
RL
Does anyone have any opinions about grain structure vs. quench methods so far tested and displayed here by me of this alloy steel or any other steel of its relative comparison? What I really feel myself most lacking in here is an abilty to properly judge grain structure.
I have, for myself, concluded a 'out of packet' warm oil quench is best and that the faster into quench the better and that taking time to remove the steel from the packet is NOT fast enough. I also believe that the steel should not merely be allowed to lay in the quench but rather it is best to have the steel move within the quench in a direction or directions of least resistance to the quenching media. This is all text book stuff and I took a lot of trouble to prove to myself that the books seem to be correct, of course. I am glad I decided to do this with a high alloy steel which are more affected by decarburization. It makes it so much more difficult to properly heat treat using what I will loosely refer to as 'kitchen table' equipment. However, not discouraging enough to discard our hopefully previous methods but enough to strive for a means to aquire better atmosphere control that provides for a truely rapid and uniform quench. Although I have been getting very good working blades from foil wrapped rapid air quenching I will always know that means of quench is not optimum and neither were the aluminum plate quenches or the in-foil-packet oil quenches I have done on this RWL-34 steel.
That is my personal conclusion.
An observation about two outstanding things I noticed after the totality of these tests were the hardnesses among the various heat treats were pretty much flat and the single most influential part of the heat treat that caused the grain appearence to change was the uniformity and speed of quench. One exception to that is when I was soaking at target temperature too briefly, way back in the beginning parts of this series.
I want very much to especially thank Mete for helping and advising me. I shall always want to ask his advise and know that from him I will receive nothing but blunt factual replies with an occasional 'at-a-boy' if I have it coming and that he truely does care that we learn how to properly HT. I want to thank Dan Gray for his sincere interest in all this and for his input. Finally I want to thank Kit Carson for sparking me into doing this, although I doubt he or I suspected it would go to this extent in time. Extra-finally thanks to all those others that offered encouragement by occasionally dropping in and expressing their interest.
I reserve the right to do one more out-of-packet rapid oil quench to see if it repeats.
Roger
I have, for myself, concluded a 'out of packet' warm oil quench is best and that the faster into quench the better and that taking time to remove the steel from the packet is NOT fast enough. I also believe that the steel should not merely be allowed to lay in the quench but rather it is best to have the steel move within the quench in a direction or directions of least resistance to the quenching media. This is all text book stuff and I took a lot of trouble to prove to myself that the books seem to be correct, of course. I am glad I decided to do this with a high alloy steel which are more affected by decarburization. It makes it so much more difficult to properly heat treat using what I will loosely refer to as 'kitchen table' equipment. However, not discouraging enough to discard our hopefully previous methods but enough to strive for a means to aquire better atmosphere control that provides for a truely rapid and uniform quench. Although I have been getting very good working blades from foil wrapped rapid air quenching I will always know that means of quench is not optimum and neither were the aluminum plate quenches or the in-foil-packet oil quenches I have done on this RWL-34 steel.
That is my personal conclusion.
An observation about two outstanding things I noticed after the totality of these tests were the hardnesses among the various heat treats were pretty much flat and the single most influential part of the heat treat that caused the grain appearence to change was the uniformity and speed of quench. One exception to that is when I was soaking at target temperature too briefly, way back in the beginning parts of this series.
I want very much to especially thank Mete for helping and advising me. I shall always want to ask his advise and know that from him I will receive nothing but blunt factual replies with an occasional 'at-a-boy' if I have it coming and that he truely does care that we learn how to properly HT. I want to thank Dan Gray for his sincere interest in all this and for his input. Finally I want to thank Kit Carson for sparking me into doing this, although I doubt he or I suspected it would go to this extent in time. Extra-finally thanks to all those others that offered encouragement by occasionally dropping in and expressing their interest.
I reserve the right to do one more out-of-packet rapid oil quench to see if it repeats.
Roger