The decline of the traditional slipjoint?

J

jamesbeat

Joined
Jul 26, 2009
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Please accept my apologies for the title of this thread, I had trouble articulating my question in one sentence.

There was a time when everybody (at least every male) had a pocket knife in their pocket.
A pocket knife was considered a necessity, and people would no more leave their knife at home than their keys or wallet.

Two particular things stick out in my mind:
The first was an old chemistry textbook that I read. One experiment was about elecroless copper plating, and suggested to the student that he or she dip the blade of their penknife into a (I think) copper sulfate solution to demonstrate that the blade would come out coated in a thin layer of copper.
The assumption was that every pupil would have a pocket knife on them.

The second is a series of books that I read.
Every British member and probably most Americans will have heard of 'Doctor Who'.
The Doctor travels through time and space in his ship, the TARDIS.
The series started in the '60's, and at that time, one of the Doctor's traveling companions was a science teacher called Ian Chesterton.
In the novelizations of these stories, Ian uses his pocket knife a great deal, as a probe, a spatula, a wedge, to cut ropes and cables etc.
It is assumed that Ian (even though he's a school teacher) would have a pocket knife about his person.
Nothing is made of him having a pocket knife, and no explanation is given, it's just a normal item carried by him, as is his hankerchief (which he also uses a lot for various things).

So, as late as the mid to late 60's in Britain, a pocket knife was considered a normal part of a man's personal effects.

What happened?
I know members of this forum wouldn't leave the house without a slipjoint, but when and why did regular folk stop carrying one?
 
On one level, I do not think anything has happened. Over the last few years, I have noticed an increase in interest in traditional knives from knife collectors and the prices for finer traditional knives have been on the rise over the last 5 years or so.

Without getting into the subject of politics and society too much the negative connotations of knives as weapons rather than tools that have permeated the media, the passing of laws against objects rather than the punishment of crimes and other things have painted the simple thought of carrying a knife as a tool in a bad light.

I know there are a lot of threads on which is the best defensive knife, etc., but when you stop and think, only a minute faction can really give a legitimate answer to that question and fewer still will find themselves in a position in their lifetime to know if they made the right choice. ;)

Hope you do not mind, but the potential of this thread, although interesting, to go beyond the scope of this little corner of BFC is great so I am going to move this to knife-laws.
 
I understand why you thought to move this to the knife laws section, but I guess part of the reason why I asked the question was because it's perfectly legal to carry a slipjoint almost everywhere in the world.
Even in Britain, which has very tough knife laws, there is a specific exemption in the law which allows a person to carry a sub-3" slipjoint.
In most (all?) countries, the law simply doesn't come in to it.

So, despite the fact that it is perfectly legal to do so, why doesn't everybody feel the need to carry a pocket knife?

I bet if you approached ten people and asked them to borrow their knife, at least nine of them would tell you they don't have one.
If you did the same thing 40 years ago (perhaps by borrowing the Doctor's TARDIS :)) I bet nine out of ten would hand you their knife.
 
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We live in a pre-packaged, zip-lock, clamshell kinda world. It's not just that less people carry a slipjoint, or other knife, many many people I know seem akward with a knife in hand.
Used to be that all the cooking involved cutting up raw meat, garden veggies, and other food prep. Glance at all the microwave dinners, frozen foods, and all the other packages that do not require cutting. People can get by without carrying a knife, most of the time.
Outside of the kitchen, we have siccors, shredders, letter openers, and even less reasons to carry a knife. Consider that most people cannot sharpen a knife, and that cheapness reigns supreme. A cheap knife will get dull fast, and get sharpened by who or how, if ever.
I gave my Grandmother and my Aunts some pocketknives. They never use them. They will grab siccors, or a cheap kitchen knife everytime.
Another thing is population density. More people live in urban areas than before. After WW2, we saw the expansion of the subdivision, commercialization, and more and more products were being produced. The older generations had to do with less, so they often had to make due with what they had, and tools like knives were neccessary.
 
I know what you mean, James. Times sure have changed in my lifetime. I recall when a knife was considered a piece of the gear everyman had in his pocket if he had pants on. Today I see people in stores trying to saw open packages with a key, or stabbing it with a Bic pen.

For one thing, easy open packaging has made a kife a lot less needed than 25 years ago. Pull open cans, pull open zip lock plastic bags, and the modern duct tape can be torn off. The old stuff had to be cut.

I'm not sure if it's part of the general plan, but it seems like the powers that be are going out of the way to make it easy to get by without a lot of things we used to take for granted. Used to be, darn near every home had at least a gun in it. Maybe a .22 rifle, an old shotgun, or something. Now it seems like less and less people are gun owners, as well as knife carriers. Less and less people hunt every year. But more and more people are depending on the nanny state for most everything.

I hate to think the 21st century is going to be moving toward the big brother thing, but the knife carry that you remarked on may be but a single symtem of the overall disease.

To me, it seems like the only people really carrying knivs these days are the 20 year old action movie and video game punks who thing a knife has to be a weapon that they can open with the speed of light, and be able to hack through a tank. Reality has little to do with things anymore, let alone the carry of a simple little cutting tool for utility. I think the decline of knives as we know it, is a social and society problem with the rising generation of delusional yuppy off spring.

The increase in anti knife laws don't help. You can't travel with a knife, you can't take a knife into the county court house, you can't take a knife into a federal government building, and God forbid a kid gets caught with a little pen knife in school. With the senseless zero tolerance crap in place, the kid gets expelled. Not suspended, but expelled. The eliminates the school people from having to actually think about each case on a case by case basis. Knives are being held up as a weapon everywhere you look. TV shows and movies feature newer and flashier knives, and the young boys watching want a knife just like Jack Baur carried, or Jethro Gibbs. I can't believe there's really thread on what knives are on the TV show NCIS. Makes me wonder if the mean age on the forums is over 16.

Between the insanity of modern society, and the obtuse actions of our lawmakers, we ain't in Kansas anymore, Toto!

Carl.
 
I think what we are seeing are two generations of kids who were taught to fear knives. It is our duty and my mission to re educate those kids.
Every day a kid turns 18 and most are out doing things that they were not allowed to do at home or in school. Education is the key to showing these kids the beauty of a finely crafted knife. What have YOU done today to advance the industry that we so dearly love??
 
I'm afraid I have to heartily disagree with the easier-to-open package part of the argument.
The number of times I've had to cut open plastic clamshell packages etc, or lend my knife to someone to perform the same suggests that there is a real reason to carry a sharp object, even now.

My best guess is that since schools put a stop to the practice, people have grown up not carrying a knife in the first place, and thus haven't started carrying one as an adult.

I suppose the Victorinox Classic is a ray of hope.
Many people clip one to their keys, and remember they have it when they need something sharp.
I've gifted quite a few to people over the years, and everybody I've given one to has continued to carry it, most likely because they just forget it's on their keys until they need it.

I believe a knife is still a valid tool nowadays, but maybe people don't want to have to think about them.
I have to go to a federal building on Thursday, and I have to remember not to have a knife on me to avoid embarrassment at the security desk.
 
I think geography has a lot to do with it, if you asked 10 people around here for a knife, I bet at least half, not includin' those that carry MultiPliers would offer ya a blade.

A lot of people hunt and fish in this area not to mention farmers who carry knives on a daily basis, than there are the trades people who seem to be prolific in this area, everyone's a landscraper or carpenter here.
 
As in Jackknife's above post, I don't know if it is an actual plan (but I suspect the worst sometimes) but the powers-that-be seem to be opposed to an educated self reliant population capable of critical thinking. To that end laws are passed and social conventions are adopted that seem designed to make the average citizen as helpless as possible. Helpless as in, dependent on 'GovCorp Ltd' to supply us with our every need or want (at a profit of course) in an easy-open, ergonomic, sanitary prepackaged format conducive to "your busy lifestyle".
Increasingly, those who insist on fending for themselves are looked at with suspicion and mistrust by the people around them as if being capable is some kind of oddity in today's society. If carrying a knife,handkerchief, lighter and flashlight everyday make me some kind of freak then so be it. Call it a happy act of rebellion.
 
Yes, I expect geography has a lot to do with it.
I wasn't really talking about work use however.
It doesn't surprise me that a hunter, fisherman, farmer, gardener etc wpuld carry a knife, and I sincerely hope that this still rubs off on those around them, as the knife they carry for work will also come in handy fir plenty of other things.
What I'm talking about though is the carrying of a knife by regular joes who don't actually need a knife for anything specific, but still acknowledge that it's worth carrying one.
I fall into that catagory myself, I have no defined 'need' for a knife, but find it such a generally useful thing to have handy that I carry one.

Carl, don't be too hard on the 'mall ninjas'.
At least they are carrying a knife, even if they think it's a magic sword that will stop a tank :D
I myself used to (and sometimes still do) carry a tactical type folder, but it was using that knife for mundane day to day tasks that made me realise how useful it is to have a knife- any knife- about my person.
That's how I got into traditional knives in the first place. Knives are just plain useful.
Once you stop thinking of it as a weapon, you can lose the lock. Might as well get one that looks nice too.
Welcome to the world of the traditional folding knife!
 
Since Jan 1st of this year I've sold over 500 of my little pry bars and I know full well it has to do with this current political environment or whatever you want to call it that gives knives a negative slant. More and more work places simply make it job threatening if you are caught with a knife of any kind on you and people seek alternatives. Hence the gadget and key ring tool market which has kicked off full time let me assure you. What used to be something we heard about only from teachers is now common place in many office environments and more. I could not count on all my toes and fingers how many people tell me monthly why they were glad they found my pry bar. Other people making similar items are reporting similar stories. I think knife laws and blade restrictions are being uniquely enforced outside of any 'law' per say. Mostly the states where these people live allow carry. It is their work places that are dictating things not the law.

STR
 
Yes that's true.
I noticed the other day at the local mall that their 'code of conduct' disallows any knife with a blade over 2".
Of course, I was ok with my peanut, but the number of occasions on which you might not be allowed a knife of any kind may make people take even that vic classic off their keychain just to avoid having to remember.
Carrying a knife does probably require more attention than most people are prepared to give.
 
I should clarify. I'd say between 50 and 60% of all the pry bars I sell go overseas. Lots of UK people carrying something like that now I'd say. Based on sales I mean. Australia too, and more and more I'm shipping them to people flying a lot. I've had several people tell me now that they have flown with their pry tool on their key ring getting through without issue. These reports have been oh, here in the last few months. One lady bought one just due to that reason and said she flies all the time with the pry tool I made her. So I think things like this contribute since in the UK and other places if what I hear is any indication, apparently you have to pass through some sort of security screen to get on public transport so a knife would be taken I guess in that case. I understand other larger cities in the USA have various restrictions on knives too and even focus on the type so I think personally its just a lot less hassle for some that would rather carry a knife. After a friend loses a good knife I guess you decide its not worth it at some point so you compromise. Sad really but it appears to be a growing trend.

STR
 
I'm from the UK, and having carried a knife there for many years, I can tell you that it's not quite as bad as you think- yet.
I've heard of the public transport security checks, but have never witnessed one. I think that, at the moment, they are more publicity stunts/intimidation excercises than standard proceedures.
It may well be that the conditions of travel on these privately owned networks do prohibit the carrying of any knife, but in practice it's still ok for now.
I guess the worst that could happen if you were caught with an otherwise legal knife is that you would be asked to turn it over or not board the train, the same as in airport security.
It may also be that legal pocket knives would be overlooked.
There is a lot of propaganda going around in the UK that carrying a knife is illegal, neglecting to mention that this is not actually true for all knives.
The transport security guys may in fact not have a leg to stand on when it comes to sub-3" slipjoints, but they would hush that kind of thing up.
I think that the UK will eventually see a complete ban on pocket knives however.
 
This is a very interesting thread, it was a good idea to post it! I myself have thought this over many times, and I don't have an answer. There was a time in America when every man had a pocket knife on him, but sadly that's not the case anymore. Maybe all of this "tactical" nonsense out there today has contributed to the public's dislike and lack of interest in knives. Honestly, I have no idea. I just wish that pocket knives could still be widely acceptable :(
 
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I think you made an error there, all men do carry pocket knives.
It's just that there are fewer real men around nowadays :D
Seriously though, it's a shame that those of us who like to prepare ourselves a little better have to suffer the stigma caused by the negative image knives have attained.

One important thing to note is that in the Doctor Who stories that I mentioned above, the Doctor and his companions are never armed and rarely use weapons of any kind.
The show originated as an educational program for kids, so there was very little violence.
It's interesting to observe that Chesterton's knife was used a lot as a tool, but never as a weapon,(even in situations in which they had been captured etc) most likely because people in those days didn't think of pocket knives as weapons.
 
"most likely because people in those days didn't think of pocket knives as weapons."

And for good reason, a pocket knife is not a item for defense. I wish everyone else had that same opinion haha.
 
thesouthernguitarist said:
"most likely because people in those days didn't think of pocket knives as weapons."

And for good reason, a pocket knife is not a item for defense. I wish everyone else had that same opinion haha.
Click to expand...

Often times it is in gang activity though. Thats the reason behind much of the inner city and larger metropolis bans or restrictions I think. I think it will likely get worse in some areas while in more rural settings things will be much better for those wishing to carry but students, people that travel and so on may just have to start to adapt in the future for where they are going. Some stores, some businesses, may not want knives inside their establishments and just like handguns there will likely be signs with knives on them. I have yet to see these so I'm not saying I know but just that it makes sense to me looking at the mind set now of the current trend. It stands to reason that if we are here now and continue on this trend that we'll end up there in the future where they are much more restrictive about such things but of course it may be beyond our life times. Lets hope.

I'm glad to hear that you travel okay in the UK with your knife. I didn't profess to really know, just suspect based on how many have asked about my mini ti pry that live there. I've got a dealer in France now also as well as a couple in the USA. I am still amazed at the market for these kinds of gadgets but I don't know why. I can't help but think that they would not sell as well at all just 10 years ago though. People then would have said forget this I'll just carry a heavy duty folder and no one would have really blinked an eye at it.

STR
 
I doubt the pocket knife in this context is used in gang fights.
I'm sorry to make a semantic argument, but we're referring to slipjoints as pocket knives for the purposes of this conversation.
I can't imagine anyone would have a slipjoint as their first choice when it comes to knife fighting.
I think that's why they're legal pretty much everywhere.
Even in government buildings, it's probably just easier to ban all knives rarher than get into discussions about whether a knife can lock etc.
Of course, any sharp object can be used as a weapon, but common sense prevails most of the time.

As to the prybar thing, I can only assume it's people playing it safe.
The laws in Britain are pretty ambiguous.
For instance the part about locking blades isn't written in the law, it was decided by legal precedent.
With the laws being so vague, strict and subject to change, coupled with the misleading anti knife campaigns, people in Britain can be forgiven for deciding a knife isn't worth the risk and going for a prybar instead.

It's also tricky to carry even a multitool in Britain.
Most multitools have a locking blade, or are designed so that the blade doesn't fold back in if you close the handles after opening the blade.
Either of these (even a Leatherman Micra) is illegal for general carry in the UK.
I suppose the nearest legal thing might well be a pry bar type tool.

There have been a few reports on a British knife forum from people who have been arrested for carrying a Spyderco UKPK, a knife specifically designed to be legal in the UK.
With even the police not knowing what the law is, who can blame someone for choosing a prybar, even when a knife might be more appropriate?

Incidentally, I no longer carry a knife in the UK myself, because I got the hell out of there and now live in the States.
Living in the UK and then moving to America sure makes you appreciate things like the Bill of Rights and the Second Amendment. I think I'm more fiercely protective of them than a lot of Americans I know :D
I'm so glad my baby daughter is going to grow up here.
 
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I'm very glad to live in the United States and have the freedoms that I do, but it seems like every so often our freedoms are trying to be taken away from us. Maybe that's just me. Anyway, I feel bad for all the knife/gun guys that live in other countries without the freedoms that we have.
 
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