The Fall of Damascus

[Danke42]

I think part of the problem is determining which is 'real' and which is the cheap stuff.
At this point, going by price doesn't always mean anything as I think some makers are lowering their prices to 'match' the influx of imported Damascus billet. There seems to be some middle ground where I cannot decide which is which.
Example: I was just looking at a cable Damascus fixed blade for less than $200!
Of course high end is high end, but what's to stop some unscrupulous person from marking up their inferior products to make it seem like it's higher quality?
It doesn't really affect me for I like unusual blades but to the layman or younger person who doesn't know it poses a problem. Or maybe the problem is all in my head!
I mean if you like it, don't worry about it, right?
Then again, purchasing inferior Damascus thinking its high quality would tend to give Damascus a bad reputation.

After thinking a bit, I take back what I said about Damascus being only an aesthetic thing.
Damascus meant that a blade was hand forged and not just created by stock removal. This from back in the day when forged was thought to be better (I still think it is!). It also usually meant that the blade was a custom.
Now, not so much.

It's all technically "real".

What stops unscrupulous people is us buying the knives from trusted makers. There are a great list of folks on here who will make knives on request.

There are also well known production makers like CRK that do awesome looking examples.

As noted prior to this post for pure function Damascus has been eclipsed by other more modern steels. For good looks though it's tough to beat.

As always if a deal seems too good to be true it probably is. You could probably 2x that rule when you're looking at Damascus steels for sale on places like Instagram.

 

[jideta]

Maybe there needs to be a distinction between, let's call it generic Damascus billet and hand forged Damascus created specifically for this knife.
Too good to be true still reigns supreme!

 

[justjed]

There should be a distinction between wootz, and pattern welded steel. Wootz is the true "Damascus" steel, and is closer in production methodology to powdered steels, it's the original crucible steel. Iron powder and charcoal are put in a clay pot with a small piece of paper, or wood, and sealed. The pot is put in a fire. The paper or wood catches fire inside the pot, using up all of the available oxygen, stabilizing the atmosphere. After the fire and cooling, the ingot is forged into a billet, the billet into a sword, and the sword into a legend. The legend is 'watered steel' which has a fine surface pattern, without layering, and a high tensile strength, courtesy of the advanced forging processes involved.

Pattern welded 'damascus' uses 2 or more types of steel welded together to exploit the strengths of differing alloys in one blade. Originally, the technique was used simply as a matter of expediency, as good pieces of leftover steel that might otherwise be wasted now had a purpose. But forge welding modern steels can give both outstanding edge retention and excellent toughness. This is NOT guaranteed, however, there are more factors involved in making a good CUTTING steel than there are in making a good LOOKING steel. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but it's difficult to get both in one blade. THAT is why we pay good money for GOOD damascus.

 

[MarkN86]

I know a lot of Japanese swords and some knives and axes forge weld a strip of higher carbon steel inset/sandwiched between a more mild steel. It seems like that would be a more reliable and much easier way to do it than twisting and patterning the steel, but maybe there is something I don't understand.

Either way, you are right, the real Wootz is different than pattern welded steel. It wasn't designed for beauty, it was designed for strength and toughness. Whatever pattern it developed was a byproduct of the process, not the end goal.

 

[justjed]

One thing to remember is that there was no 'damascus' steel before about 1972 or so. Stacked or welded alloy billets had given way to rolled bar-stock during the Industrial Revolution, and good steel was much easier to procure. The process for pattern welding was lost to the ages, until the middle of the 20th century, when a few old geezers started trying to unlock the secrets of the legends. Bill Moran was the first 'smith to be successful, and it didn't take long before there was a good supply of pattern welded blades. Unless you just want to pay for a hammer-and-anvil piece, there is no reason to eschew good damascus made with a trip-hammer, or whatever. What you need is a good number of alternating layers at the edge, to combine the properties of the two steels, but not so homogeneous that these strengths are diluted to an average below either. It's a fine balance, and why twist patterns cut so well.

As far as I know, Al Pendray was the first Westerner to successfully smelt an ingot of wootz. I don't tend toward the belief that the secret of wootz had been lost forever, but rather that it was/is a closely held secret in the Middle East. Be that as it may, the secret is out, and wootz is available, again. I do tend toward thinking that modern crucible steels will far out-perform even really good wootz, in most categories. In a small bade, wootz is overkill, except for bragging rights, and pride of ownership. There are many steels better suited for an every day knife. But in a big blade, where shock-strength and flexibility are true assets, wootz is still a viable choice. Well, it would be, if it wasn't so damned expensive.

 

[22-rimfire]

I agree that good damascus is still being made by the master smiths. My problem is that I really can't tell the difference. I see Buck or CRK using damascus and I have absolutely no idea if it is any good what so ever. Hence, I would never buy it. I have no reference point to judge good and bad, or average or exceptional. So, I'll leave the damascus blades for you guys.

I own one knife with damascus, namely a stag Buck 110 that was made in the early 90's. I know it was considered pretty niffty by the price, but again I have no way to judge in. Mine is not as pretty as much of the damascus that you see today.

 

[JParanee]

When it comes to folding knives any properly heat treated piece of steel be it a simple carbon or a modern high tech steel will generally suffice for normal use

but

when it comes to swords and larger knife like objects the subtle nuances of the forged to shape blade that shows radical distal taper as well as differential heat treat etc lends itself more to the different types of Damascus and laminated blades as well as simple carbon steels

sure makers like Dan Keffeler have shown the merits of modern super steels in their swords but in general the artists that make the really good stuff choose the process of forging for the art of it but also the feel such blades exhibit compared to a stock removal piece

yes you can grind a modern super steel into a great sword that will perform well but believe me in that application a properly heat treated blasé of what you guys are calling dated works pretty well

 

[Mitchell Knives]

Now I can get a Damascus knife for like $20!

You can't buy a legitimate damascus knife for $20.

$20 will buy about 1" of damascus bar stock.

 

[DanLoop]

When did it happen?
Oh, like forty years ago when I was buying and selling blades Damascus separated the men from the boys so to speak. Only the awesome guys messed with it; just too hard to make and it was big bucks.
Now I can get a Damascus knife for like $20!
Seems like it has really fallen from grace, cheapening even the 'real' hand made Damascus.
Can someone tell me the story?

I've seen quite a few knives for sale described something like Hand forged Damascus, 200 layers of 1095 with low and high prices. Like most, I've also read about the ancient Damascus so any knife today called Damascus means to me a blade with a swirly pattern.

 

[shqxk]

Damascus knife from makers like Burt Foster, Don Hanson, Jerry Fisk, Adam DesRosier and many more, still sold unbelievable fast...

 

[Lodd]

THe OP does touch upon a point. I, too, feel like Damascus has been cheapened a lot the past few years, up to the point where I find myself avoiding it.

I call this the 'Rolex effect', which I have made up just now. You see, something similar happened (at least here) to Rolex. Rolex is a brand for showing off. Mostly by people who don't know much about watches. Or about style and substance. The many cheap knock-offs didn't help. In fact, there are so many knock-offs (or 'homages') that if you see a Rolex in the wild, you'll sorta automatically assume it's a fake, at which point the wearer has the opportunity to show off even more by automatically assuring you that it is, in fact real, and even though you didn't ask, he paid the ridiculous price of too many euro's for it, so it must be real, thank you very much. And also, they cant actually afford it,'not really, but they still want to show off being rich, but maybe they won €10K from a scratch ticket or took out another bad loan. Or they will hint at some sort of illicit income.

Ironically, the kind of people that are really quite rich (old money) mostly seem to wear Timex. Now I'm not against expensive watches, mind you. To each their own. But if I had that kind of money to burn on a watch, I'd do my research and end up with something else than a Rolex, if only not to be associated with the above. And the sad thing is, all of the above probably isn't the fault of Rolex. It just kind of happened. I suppose they are good watches in their own right.

The same thing seems to be happening to Damascus. Every time I see Damascus I either tend to think "Awww, someone's just got into knives and hasn't discovered the Maker's market yet" or "This is needlessly driving up the price". I can appreciate Damascus if it's done tastefully, but that seems to be pretty rare these days. It doesn't help that every cheap pakistani knife on the bay seems to be screaming 'Exclusive (fake) Damascus'. ANd then there are the overpriced Damascus 'junk tools' like damascus beer openers or knuckles. They exist solely as man jewelry to show off. They don't seem to be meant for use.

Now there's nothing wrong with a bit of man jewelry or a bit of showing off. Lord knows I can't cast the first stone in that regard. But if you do show off, try to find something worthwhile or special somehow. In that regard, I'd rather some nice wood or elk scales instead of a damascus blade. Because everyone is already doing damascus, and most are doing it badly.


This became a bit of a rant, lol. Sorry. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[not2sharp]

I don’t know if this is correct, but I have always considered Damascus steel to bear an added corrosion risk. You have welds and perhaps inclusions where rust can begin, dissimilar materials that may pose electrolytic problem, and a decorative surface which needs to be in good polish to present the steel work in the best way.

n2s

 

[Monofletch]

Maybe it would be better said- in stead of “The Fall of Damascus” maybe it should be “The Evolution of Damascus”

 

[Ron Sabbagh]

There used to be an event called the ABS (American Bladesmith Society) Hammer-In. It was not a knife show, but rather a "weekend conference/event" open to anyone who wanted to learn how to forge a blade or for bladesmiths to hone their skills. I don't know if they still exist. These were shows started by Bill Moran and were attended by ABS mastersmiths from across the country. Jerry Fisk, Steve Dunn, Big John Fitch, Joe Flourney, many others. It was an extremely cordial place run by gentlemen and a lot of fun. You can walk up to any Smith at the show (like Steve Dunn) and forge a blade with him. Really an incredible opportunity.

Towards the end of the event, they often held impromptu cutting contests. Mostly for bragging rights, or a small cash prize. Some of those Damascus blades were cutting through 2.5" hanging rope in under 5 seconds.

I think the moral of the story is that Damascus "done right" can be a very effective steel.

I agree with the OP in that the "lure" of Damascus has lost it's lustre with the advent of powdered steels and the ubiquity of lesser quality Damascus . I don't think there is the same desire to become a master bladesmith like there was 20 years ago. But as I said in an earlier post...that dog can still hunt.

I wish I had a camera to capture Big John Fitch cutting through the 2.5" hanging rope with a single swing.

 

[Horsewright]

I make and sell a lot of damascus knives. Most of my work goes to working cowboys/ranchers etc. These knives get used and used hard.

Ya go places and ya see folks wearing your work:

Many cowboys hunt too:

My son has never had another job except being a working cowboy:

A few years back he was riding heifers for one of the largest ranches in California.

Riding heifers involves checking a large group, in this case 300 heifers that are getting ready to calve for the first time. Often they will need help and thats whats happening in the pic above, he's getting ready to get shoulder deep in that heifer to see what the problem is and what he can do to fix it. Sometimes the calf would be dead inside and he would have to cut it up into pieces to get it out. Riding heifer's is big boy cowboy stuff, not for the weekend warrior. Better be mounted too, cause you are usually working alone and are RELYING on that horse!

He found one of the heifers had broken her leg and it looked like she was getting ready to calve in a week or so. So he called his boss, the ranch manger, who came out with some pvc pipe and duct tape (duct tape can fix most problems as we all know) and they were gonna splint this heifers hind leg. However they weren't able to do this as the break was right at the pelvis, no way of splinting it. So the boss called the big boss, the owner, to see what he wanted to do. He said to shoot the heifer and do a caesarean to try and save the calf. So they did. Ya got 3 minutes to get that calf out before it dies. Poor little calf did live for a few hours but didn't make it. They then called the butcher. He was tied up so couldn't come out to process the heifer. However if they were to decapitate the heifer and then quarter her he could process the meat if they could bring it to him. So what did they use for all this cutting? Oneof my Buckaroo models:

6.5 inches oal with a 2 5/8 inch blade. Got er done on this 1200 pound heifer. Some of the best grassfed burger I've ever tasted.

Damascus hasn't fallen and its a great using steel. Ya just can't see us from the road most of the time.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_SZZSFDKxo/

Helping my son put the first ride on Billy.

The ranch he runs.

 

[JParanee]

It’s all what your exposed to

if your experiences with Damascus blades are cheap Pakistani made blades or for that matter run of the mill forged blades than I guess ya just don’t know

not to piss on the many wonderful new super steels out there but quality forged blades have been getting it done for a long long time and it kinda makes me laugh when I see comments from folks that just don’t get it

Some of my best performing blades are made of mystery steel ..... this is steel that the makers dig up in fields or mines. Old axles or plows

I have one Bowie from Bill Bagwell who by the way was credited as the second MS to do Damascus after Moran that is a simple forged carbon blade that he scavenged from a plow blade long left to rust in a field

I’ve carried that blasé all over the world and it’s never left me down from building runways in Alaska to leopard blinds in Africa

I have 2 swords from David Mirabile that the steel was scavenged from an axle in old abandoned mine in Alaska.

swords in my mind are the toughest test of a blade

both are dome of the best cutters I’ve ever used

all have been beaten on and never rolled an edge or chipped

it’s all about edge geometry and heat treat

all were tempered by eye from hands that new what they were doing

simple forged blades be it damascus or laminate or whatever have been getting it done when blades were actually used by men that used them to make a living , fight and survive long before the craze of people sharpening their super steel blades to such a fine edge they could cut toilet paper

Not saying they are better just saying the very good examples certainly don’t suck

 

[JParanee]

I make and sell a lot of damascus knives. Most of my work goes to working cowboys/ranchers etc. These knives get used and used hard.

Ya go places and ya see folks wearing your work:

Many cowboys hunt too:

My son has never had another job except being a working cowboy:

A few years back he was riding heifers for one of the largest ranches in California.

Riding heifers involves checking a large group, in this case 300 heifers that are getting ready to calve for the first time. Often they will need help and thats whats happening in the pic above, he's getting ready to get shoulder deep in that heifer to see what the problem is and what he can do to fix it. Sometimes the calf would be dead inside and he would have to cut it up into pieces to get it out. Riding heifer's is big boy cowboy stuff, not for the weekend warrior. Better be mounted too, cause you are usually working alone and are RELYING on that horse!

He found one of the heifers had broken her leg and it looked like she was getting ready to calve in a week or so. So he called his boss, the ranch manger, who came out with some pvc pipe and duct tape (duct tape can fix most problems as we all know) and they were gonna splint this heifers hind leg. However they weren't able to do this as the break was right at the pelvis, no way of splinting it. So the boss called the big boss, the owner, to see what he wanted to do. He said to shoot the heifer and do a caesarean to try and save the calf. So they did. Ya got 3 minutes to get that calf out before it dies. Poor little calf did live for a few hours but didn't make it. They then called the butcher. He was tied up so couldn't come out to process the heifer. However if they were to decapitate the heifer and then quarter her he could process the meat if they could bring it to him. So what did they use for all this cutting? Oneof my Buckaroo models:

6.5 inches oal with a 2 5/8 inch blade. Got er done on this 1200 pound heifer. Some of the best grassfed burger I've ever tasted.

Damascus hasn't fallen and its a great using steel. Ya just can't see us from the road most of the time.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_SZZSFDKxo/

Helping my son put the first ride on Billy.

The ranch he runs.

Great stuff

 

[Ron Sabbagh]

Horsewright & JParanee thank you for the informative posts. Always great to hear from the makers.

that’s what I’m talkin’ about...damascus done right will perform!

we haven’t even discussed the Japanese makers who have been hand forging razors/knives/swords in the ancient technique for 1000 years.

 

[bigsurbob]

Damascus is fun. And they work. @Phillip Patton @Saxman25

 

[BillZee]

I remember when I first started buying pocket knives as a kid. The biggest problem was keeping them from rusting. Especially when not using them. I thought Damascus steel was so cool. As a true art from they are beautiful. Although I agree that modern alloys have better properties and less problem with rust.