The finest sharpener bar NONE!

Dave,
If you took two 10" cooks knives that were totally dull and set a challenge to two people using the Sharpmaker and the Edge Pro I know which person I'd have money on!
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Your money are in trouble, Buddy! ;)
I can take the challenge. Please select angle-forcing sharpening system what do you like and I will work freehand using 8” double-sided DMT Duo-Sharp plate for reprofiling and the set of SPYDERCO ProFiles for finishing. I have no experience with EdgePro, but looking onto its pictures I can’t exclude that I could finish my work before you would set up this super-system :)

Seriously, to keep this Forum as discussion place but not as praising and hyping forum it would be sensible to compare comparable things with a small bit cooler head than first delight suggests.

I know clearly Sharpmaker’s limitations, here they are:
  • It tends to round blade tips if working on rod edges without suitable care. Working with care it is pretty difficult to work with very last some millimeters of edge near the tip.
  • It forces you to reprofile your edge if factory sharpening angle doesn’t match preset angles. However this drawback is characteristic to each angle-forcing sharpener excluding ones with smoothly adjustable angle.
  • With standard set it is fairly slow when reprofiling.
However the last drawback is solved with additional diamond rods. Spending additional money you are still far, far below EdgePro price...

How EdgePro holds up in these matters? This would be fair comparison!
My Sharpmaker will now be sold secondhand or it will stay in the garage.
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I have much better idea: set it up constantly in your kitchen. Some strokes on fine rods after each serious knife use would prevent you from using EdgePro on your kitchen knives for long, long time, if not at all :D
 
My favorite subject comes up again! I haven't been on the forums in a while due to a lot of moving about, but seeing this reminded me of an old discussion which may help some folks who are having difficulty with their Edge Pro's. This thread http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89204&highlight=Edge+Pro and this one http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89284&highlight=Edge+Pro have a lot of very useful, objective info on the Apex for anyone who's interested. For Bimmer1 and matthew rapaport, here's my opinion based on my experience with the Edge Pro. It will sharpen almost any knife out there. I used it to sharpen an 18" Ontario machete, with a sawback. I've also sharpened a Kershaw Boa with it, and if you've seen a Boa, you know how deep the recurve is. My only problem with it has been with really thin blades, like an Old Timer mini stockman. It's possible to do, but tricky. I can't say for sure how well it works for beginners though. I had a fair amount of experience when I bought it. I will say that the concept of how to use it is simple enough, but practice is what really gets results. I had the most luck with mine after I read the sharpening FAQ here on BF. You have to know what you are trying to accomplish when you're sharpening a knife before you can do it really well.
 
Sergiusz Mitin :

Please select angle-forcing sharpening system what do you like and I will work freehand using 8? double-sided DMT Duo-Sharp plate for reprofiling and the set of SPYDERCO ProFiles for finishing. I have no experience with EdgePro, but looking onto its pictures I can?t exclude that I could finish my work before you would set up this super-system :)
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The argument was using both the Sharpmaker and the Edge Pro to sharpen a dull knife, which was faster, and the answer is obviously the Edge Pro. Can you work faster freehand, with larger stones, yes. You can also work even faster with a wet wheel grinder, and faster still with a belt sander and buffer, none of this is relevannt to the discussion, which is addressing the major problem with the Sharpmaker which is the time of intial grinding due to its very slow cutting speed compared to rod and clamp systems.

As for the set up time for the Edge Pro, it is not significantly longer than the Sharpmaker once you are familiar with it. Fold the legs back, pop in the main support, connect the guiding rod, and clamp in the stone. The main time drawback is in getting the stones wet, which is a problem with all waterstones, and why they are best stored wet. As well the stones will hollow with use. Ben also provides a lapping compound (fine sand) to solve this problem. Done on a regular basis, it is also only a few minutes work, comparable to scrubbing the hones on the Sharpmaker. Only the coarse hones really need to be lapped on a regular basis, as the harder ones wear much more slowly.

[speed of changing the angle on the Sharpmaker]

However the last drawback is solved with additional diamond rods.
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This is still going to be far slower than using the x-coarse stone on the Edge Pro. In regards to the price difference, how much money is your time worth. Even if you only give yourself minimum wage, it won't take very many knives before the price difference goes the other way due to the speed of cutting. As well there is the significant issue of angle range. With the Sharpmkaer you are forced to go freehand if you don't want to work on either of the two angles. The Edge Pro has a much wider range.

As for Sharpening an Emerson chisel grind on a Sharpmaker, you just freehand it.


Some strokes on fine rods after each serious knife use would prevent you from using EdgePro on your kitchen knives for long, long time, if not at all
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You can do the exact same thing with the Edge Pro. Just leave the x-fine stone (or tape) in the clamp and give it a rinse with water and off you go. Most don't do this because Ben Dale also sells a fine ceramic rod which is used for maintaining the edge between sharpenings, much as you would use a Sharpmaker.

As for the multitude of uses of the Sharpmaker on various utility blades, you can if you wish use the hones that some with the Edge Pro, freehand, just like using the Sharpmaker to sharpen various odd objects. You can also attach the tapes to surfaces of any construction which give you greater versatility than the Sharpmaker.

The Sharpmaker is a very fine v-rod system, easily the high quality one available. It is also much more versatile than the other v-rod systems because of the triangle nature of the hones, and the fact that they are removable and can be attached to the base to function as a bench stone. However all that being said, the Edge Pro is a huge jump in function, power and versatility. If you want to argue price/performance, then yes. However I can make the same claim for a v-rod system that sells for ~$5 which will dominate any comparison based on price.

As for the Edge Pro and tips, you can by keeping the blade fixed, sharpen the tip naturally at a more acute angle than the rest of the blade body. If this doesn't suit you, then you just rotate the blade on the mount as you sweep out the tip, keeping the edge perpendicular to the hone. As for 1/4" knives, yes, easily if you want, and very long knives as well.

-Cliff
 
These systems are not directly comparable since they offer different benefits and are at completely different price points. It's not so much a question of which one is better, but which one meets your needs.

The Edge Pro is a very nice system with wider angle-seting capabilities and additional grits that the Sharpmaker 204 does not have. The design is a better, more advanced system if you want a lot of bevel-angle accuracy and control.

The 204 is simpler. You get 2 grits and 2 preset angles (plus free-hand) at an affordable price. That is enough for maintaining an edge that cuts superbly. The main weaknesses in the 204 are resolved by being careful sharpening the tip and by adding the optional diamond rods to speed reprofiling.

If you just want to maintain your edges as conveniently as possible and are happy with the preset 30 and/or 40 degree settings, the 204 is a good choice. On the other hand, If you want more angle settings to experiment with and want perfect angle control for some impressive custom edges and extensive reprofiling and you don't mind tinkering around with a more complicated, messier system, the Edge Pro would be a better choice. I don't see any necessity to match a knife's original factory bevel angle, but if that is important to you, get an Edge Pro.

So what do you want to do? Put a custom edge on your knife, or just resharpen it and go cut something? The Edge Pro is an advanced system for serious sharpening nuts, not an entry-level system. If you are unsure whether you want or need an Edge Pro, you don't-- the 204 will give you all the complexity you will want to deal with. If you have used a system like the 204, have maxed out it's capabilities and still find it too limiting, step up to an Edge Pro.

And I second Roadrunner's remark about skill. These systems require less skill than free-hand sharpening, but ultimately they are only tools. They won't put a keen edge on your knife, you will. You still have to learn about sharpening theory and how to use the sharpeners properly to get good results. That's more important than the system used.
 
OK, Cliff!
If EdgePro sharpening system is with clear cut better than Sharpmaker (isn’t it? :rolleyes: ) why so many “stupids” (sorry, folks, and no offence please - I’m one of mentioned) are choosing Sharpmaker? Just because it is less expensive than EdgePro? Or maybe because it is enough to match their real needs and they do not see any reasons to pay for these need overkilling?

The main rule of marketing claims: “Each stupid can sell you what you really need and want, with no thanks. Much more skills require to sell you what you really don’t need or/and don't want. But the true art is to sell you what you don’t need or/and don't want at the price this item is not worth!”

I could explain some marketing rules more but probably Spark should set up suitable Forum, here is Blade Discussion one...

Lurker,
You are quite right excepting one but important point. The true sharpening nut do not need any advanced, accomplished and expensive angle-forcing sharpening tool.
They all are for beginners.
 
you can keep them all I have a high quality oilstone i can get a shaving edge in 10 mins on a pocket knife no markings to the blade no problems sharpening the tip no problems with large / long knives. I do however like the look of the 10000 grit stone spyderco are marketing now for final touching im thinking its a bit OTT tho
 
Lurker :

The 204 is simpler.
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This is pretty much the reason why I usually chose it as a knife related gift. Give a novice the Edge Pro and they are left wondering about angles and grits, and dealing with the soaking and lapping of waterstones, when to change tapes etc. . With the Sharpmaker the instructions are much simpler, and anyone can use it with no previous knowledge of sharpening or hones in very little time. The only note of caution that I make is if the blade fails to take the initial edge with a decent period of time, it means the edge is too thick and to drop the knife by and I'll slim it down. With this problem removed the system is smooth and easy to use.

That being said, I do think that once you start buying more expensive knives, especially looking for higher performance, especially in the field of edge holding I think you need to drop the sharpmaker and get a more versatile system which is capable of a wider angle range and a much wider range of abrasives. This is where the Edge Pro comes in, and it can offer a many to one performance jump in cutting ability and edge retention on your knives by allowing the edge angle and grit finish to be optomized for the task at hand. It also vastly reduces the formation of burrs which are induced quite readily by the high pressure of the ceramics on the Sharpmaker, especially the corners. Of course you can do all of this cheaper freehand, sandpaper being the cheapest method, waterstones being the next.



Sergiusz Mitin :

if EdgePro sharpening system is with clear cut better than Sharpmaker (isn?t it? ) why so many ?stupids? (sorry, folks, and no offence please - I?m one of mentioned) are choosing Sharpmaker?
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Popularity is a very poor way to judge the quality or functionality of a product. I doubt the volume of Sharpmakers sold can compete with low end versions of the same thing, so by your line of reasoning they are the better product and you should all sell your Sharpmakers and buy a $5 v-rod system.


... they do not see any reasons to pay for these need overkilling?
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The Sharpmaker is overkill for I would estimate the vast majority of the people that buy it. I just did a quick check on the forums for posts about the Sharpmaker and very few of them are using the system as anything other than a v-rod set up. If that is your intent, there are far cheaper systems available. As I noted before, the price arguement works both ways.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, you said this:

"The argument was using both the Sharpmaker and the Edge Pro to sharpen a dull knife, which was faster, and the answer is obviously the Edge Pro."

I think that in the context of this whole thread, Sergiusz's comments are right on. Fracmeister said this: "Those of you who have access to a slackbelt can do a convex edge if you like... but I can make a dang sharp knife every time." Mike Turber said the Edge Pro is the ebst, PERIOD. Even the thread title saus the Edge Pro is the best BAR NONE. The discussion here isn't limited to Edge Pro versus Sharpmaker. Sergiusz was just trying to say that the Edge Pro may be faster than a Sharpmaker, but there are faster things out there yet. It is similar to putting, say, a Ginsu knife and one of the new Titanium II knives up against eachother, and saying the Ginsu outcuts the Titanium II 5 times!!! Who cares! Gimme a hand made kitchen knife in BG-42 or something like that, and then watch the comparison! Now, I'm not suggesting that the Sharpmaker and Edge Pro are at the level of quality that Ginsu and Titanium II knives are! I just use that for comparison.

I have an older Sharpmaker, I used to have a Gatco system, I have a Razor's Edge Pro kit, and i have my grinder. The very best edges I have eben able to get are with my grinder, You get even bevels as thick or thin as you want, done very fast, and you can go with a rougher grit or ultra polished. I can do recurves, machetes, little folders, or whatever I want. With very little mess too! And as Frac mentioned, I can do convex edges if I want. In fact, I do them a lot on my grinder.

But guess what? I still use my other gear! My sharpmaker handles some very tiny things I sharpen that my other gear can't handle well. It also does serrations nicely, or puts a quick touch-up on my EDC so I can use it all day and do a proper sharpening job when I get home. When I go to my granny's house, my Razor Edge kit comes with me. It sharpens a drawer of kitchen knives quite fast, and the kit is nice and portable. I also sharpen the blades at a group home that my girlfriend works at, and the Sharpmaker and Razor's Edge kti come along for that job. And still, I try to free hand sharpen often, so that I can be anywhere and still sharpen my knives.

One last plug for belt sanders, though. Some blades are best WITH convex edges. A convex edge on a cleaver is a better edge to use, as far as havign a durable edge goes. Also, an axe should have a convex edge. Can you put a convex edge on an axe with the Edge Pro? Some jobs like that make the belt sander shine. But here's the REAL kicker with a belt sandeR: it is a SANDER! You can use it for wood working projects, you can put a scotchbrite belt on there and polish your golf clubs, and so on. Try that with an Edge Pro or a Sharpmaker! :)
 
Crayola :

The discussion here isn't limited to Edge Pro versus Sharpmaker.
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No, but that particular question was, and specifically addressed one of the large weak points of the Sharpmaker which is cutting speed. Are there faster methods, of course, just as I noted.

The thread in particular focused on the Edge Pro vs the Sharpmaker, if you really want to bring in the big guns, the Tormek is a huge upgrade over the Edge Pro and is a directly better system. Much more versatile, and much faster.

Can you put a convex edge on an axe with the Edge Pro?
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Yes, the angle adjustment is infinite in increment, so you can get a smooth curve if you want. It would take some time though and is a bit wastefull. A simple double bevel will get you to within a few percent of the performance of a convex edge.

I do agree about a belt sander being a very useful sharpening tool. They are actually not expensive, and you have a huge range of grits. The speed is also vastly ahead of manual systems. The main drawbacks are the ability to ruin a blade by over heating, and the danger involved.

Personally, you can't go acute enough on the angle either, which is why I intend to get a wet wheel system shortly. Not the Tormek though as I have no use for the jigs.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,
About setting up Sharpmaker constantly in the kitchen instead of throwing it into garage or selling second hand...
Truly amazing ability to use portioned and pulled out of context quotes. Please choose whatever your statement and using this method I will prove all what you said or what you didn’t and in any subject starting with knives and finishing at worlds politics of flower breeding.

Yes, I have pretty inexpensive Lansky V-rod sharpener (instead of Sharpmaker) constantly mounted in my kitchen for several reasons:
* Longer rods work better on long kitchen knives
* Easier to use, edge shouldn’t match flat surfaces of Sharpmaker triangles
* Less expensive replacement if my wife or kids would break thin and fragile ceramic rod(s)
* It is used for touchup only so the lack of sharpening accuracy of round rods is not an issue

As to sharpeners generally – as all things in this world they can be divided into three basic groups according both price and usefulness:
* Basic – cheap but barely useful, minimum sense for minimum money, pretty frequently exist only to prove that thrifty man pays doubly
* Reasonable – match most of user’s needs for the affordable price, usually this group contains so-called best buys
* Exclusive – match what user needs and what he or she doesn’t for pretty high cost, usually no best buys here

Most of Forumites probably could agree that EdgePro with its quite high cost and advanced functions is not for beginners, rather for advanced users. But here is a lot of nonsense because advanced user usually can obtain closely comparable if not better results sharpening freehand.

So simple conclusion: do you like EdgePro sharpening system? Please buy it and use the way you do like and need. But it would be really hard to prove that it is the best sharpener or especially - the best buy.
 
Sergiusz Mitin :

Most of Forumites probably could agree that EdgePro with its quite high cost and advanced functions is not for beginners, rather for advanced users. But here is a lot of nonsense because advanced user usually can obtain closely comparable if not better results sharpening freehand.
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In Lee's book on sharpening, which is for advanced users, he constantly points out the necesary use of jigs to control the angle. While it is very true that freehand sharpening can approach the results of angle controlled methods (it obviously can't surpass it), the main problem is that you can't get the same refinement on the angle. This is of no importance to a novice, but is for an advanced user, or should be anyway.

For example, Lee talks in detail about the angle that chisels should be ground based on the steel that they are made from, and the use they are intended to perform. If you don't use an angle guide, do you think you can maintain small changes in angles, or over time will your dozens of chisels all tend to meld together into the same edge profile. For the vast majority of people, the latter will happen.

With knives it is pretty much the same thing. If you are just buying low to mid end production, then angles and such are not overly important. But when you start looking for very high performance, it makes little sense to spend $500 on a knife, which could be outperformed by a $50 one with a better sharpening (angle and/or grit). When investigating which angle and/or grit works better, this is much easier with a jig as you get consistent results each time.

All that being said, I don't use the Edge Pro or Sharpmaker, though I have in the past. Right now I do my sharpening freehand, but I am constantly changing the angles and grit finishes on the blades I use. When I want to look at something in detail (edge retention or whatever), I will use an angle guide so that comparisions are more consistent. Right now the angle guide is a $5 v-rod system, which comes with a ceramic rod, but also fits my large DMT rod and a butchers steel, which was a bit of a fluke.

If you ignore money, the Edge Pro is easily much better than the Sharpmaker, just as the Tormek is much better than the Edge Pro, by a much bigger margin even. If you don't ignore money then the decision has to be based on free income, obviously dependent on the individual. For some people the Sharpmaker is quite expensive, for others the Tormek is quite cheap. If you want to go higher end still look at the sharpeners from CATRA. A big jump over the Tormek again (for knives), but the price has jumped yet again. The Catrasharp for example is $1255.

-Cliff
 
Stupid question:

If you are so interested in doing something so advanced to a knife like reprofiling the edges why don't you invest the time to do it the expert(benchstone) way. Seems to me that if you have to use a v-rod or guided angle system you should not be reprofiling in the first place.

I hate v-rod systems. They just don't work for me and the edpro seems to be an overglorified Lansky clamp type system to me....
 
King Grinch :

Seems to me that if you have to use a v-rod or guided angle system you should not be reprofiling in the first place.
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Yes, this is a very valid point. I think in his Razor Edge Book, JJ also notes that you can do the relief grinding freehand. There is a rather large difference in shaping an edge and actually sharpening one. If you are just hogging metal off to thin out an edge you don't need to be accurate nor precise.

Yes you will waste a lot of time because your angle is varying, but the speed of metal removal of a large waterstone with lapping compound is far greater than that of even the coarse hone on the Edge Pro anyway. But can you freehand one bevel to 17 degrees and then another to 15? Few people can.

I would however recommend raw initial shaping to be done on a large benchstone in the above manner and then you can refine the primary edge angles with the Edge Pro. A belt sander is even faster for the initial rough work, or a wet wheel grinder if you have access to either.

However even the rough shaping work isn't that trival to do and can result in some cosmetic damage to the knife in marring the primary grind, choil or tip. For those with the skills, lets not forget that not everyone is the same. And looking down on people who want to use a jig isn't overly productive. It is on par with using a spell checker.

It should be noted that you can with a bit of work make the Sharpmaker a variable angle sharpener. A number of forum members have commented that they use wooden wedges to create other sharpening angles. This makes the system much more versatile.

There are also angle clamps that you can attach to knives, like the Razor Edge clamps (those are static however). Combine these with a set of benchstones you have all the abilities of the Edge Pro. You will have problems with recurves though on most clamps.

And yes, the Edge Pro is just an advancement on the Lansky, just as the Sharpmaker is on the common cats-eye models.

-Cliff
 
Cliff you said something about Razor Edge Clamps are they adjustable. What other benchstone clamps are out there?
 
I asked Joe Talmadge the same thing about the Razor Edge Clamps and if I recall correctly, you can adjust the angle by varing where you put the clamp on the knife. Lee Valley also sells a few knife clamps. I have not used any of them. For wood working tools, chisels especially, there are several high grade clamps, Lee Valley sells them as well.

-Cliff
 
For hard steels and ceramics, you can buy aluminum blanks from Edge pro and 600 and 1200 E-Z Lap diamond stones from E-Z Lap and super glue them to the alum. blanks. Then you're really ready to handle all your hard chores, and they never have to be "evened" out with that sand stuff (which I never figured out what that was all about) I just use the diamonds exclusively now and never bother with the stones that came with the edge-pro. Do use the polishing tapes though.
 
I really like this thread!! Sharpening knives have been a passion of mine since grade school. I even sharpened knives for friends and fellow hunters for free, that is how much I enjoyed sharpening knives! I have used all the methods described here. A belt sander is the quickest way to sharpen and blade and then take it to the buffer and you have one sharp blade in a few minutes. I feel that the most precise way to maintain any angle on a blade is with the Edge Pro, and it is really fast. I have both the old and new Sharpmakers and they seem to be ok for blades that have their angles, and it makes a good system to use for "maintaining those angles on a blade". I would like to see someone use the Sharpmaker to profile an edge...I've tried it more than once and I give up...not having adequate time. And yes, I do have the diamond sleeves.
Like the one post stated, take two knives and see what sharpens them quicker, the Edge Pro would win in my book. Of course a belt sander would beat them both.
I agree that the Edge Pro is more for the advanced sharpener, I primarily use it because I can't get more exact angles with anything else I've tried. The skarb has a place to. IMHO, angles are extremely important to getting a proper edge. The edge pro is so versatile with all the angles and different grit stones. I have sharpened every blade and machette I own with it. However, I did own one custom made from 420v that I dulled and it took me forever to sharpen it, btw, I traded that knife off.
Different strokes for different folks, but I'll take the Edge Pro. I hope this thread continues as I really enjoy reading different views, etc.
 
I've used the Lansky clamp system, the Spyderco Sharpmaker, and the EdgePro. I think they all excell in their own ways in specific applications.

Like many posters, I have trouble holding a consistent angle, so the Lansky works very well for me. But it works best on smallish blades, and these must have a useable "flat" area of the blade on which to attach the clamp.

The EdgePro is like a Lansky, but rather than clamping the knife, you lay the flat area down on the EdgePro table. You use your own hand pressure to keep the knife on the table. The EdgePro allows more freedom of movement, and works for almost any sized knife, even swords. It think it really shines for kitchen knives -- large knives with large, uniform, flat areas.

The Sharpmaker is the most "free form" of all the systems, relying on you to hold the knife at a fixed (but simple to see) angle. You can sharpen almost any size or shape of knife with it, but you rely more than the other systems on your eye-hand coordination to keep a steady angle.

I think as I've practiced and gained experience with all these devices, I've learned a little better how to sharpen "barehanded" with just a stone. I'm still not very good with a flat stone, but I find I'm getting very good using a round ceramic rod to touch up edges.

One thing that helped a lot was to mark the edge with a magic marker so I could easily see where I was hitting the stone.

Enough for now...

Bear
 
Hrmm.

Slightly off-topic...

Has anyone successfully sharpened a recurve or sharp hawkbill a la BM 710, Emerson Mini-Commander, or Emerson LaGriffe on the Edge Pro?

Right now I'm using a DMT plastic angle-holder and a Hewlett diamond stick...... ..... ......

It works, but it ain't fast, and I'm leery of using it as it feels like I'm already losing diamond from the stick (possible or psychosomatic????)

Thanks.

-Jon
 
biogon,

I have sharpened a 710 on the EdgePro without any trouble. I've never tried a true hawkbill though. I would guess it wouldn't be to much trouble (just a lot of knife movement to keep the angle consistent).

BTW, Ben Dale sells half-width stones if the standards are to wide for your particular knife.

Brent...
:p
 
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