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The gang that couldn't shoot straight

May 22, 1999
Well there goes the neighborhood. Thursday morning around 4:00am there was a driveby shooting one street up. After seven shots with what sounded like a 9mm the only casualty was some windows and a wall of the house. I thought it was the local airport safety officer chasing away birds. The next morning around 1:00am there was a shootout at the same house with 15-20 shots fired. This time the owner shot back with an AK-47. Still no human casualties. Because I believe the perp saw my neighbor(s) on the balconay pointing a hunting rifle a them the shoot out was preventing from spilling over into our street and they jumped the fence back into their yard. There must have been more than two neighbors pointing guns at them because they were willing to face the AK-47 again to make their getaway.

Because this is a nice neighborhood everybody met at the police substation to see what we could do. The community patrol said this was the largest crowd they saw with such short notice. There we found out that several rounds penetrated 5 walls of an adjacent house and missed the kids by several inches. As usual the police said they are tied by the rights of the individuals and could make no arrest. Although they confiscated AK-47 they could not find the individuals who were firing at the house.

With this incident I decided my homemade .45 auto and Gerber boot knife were not enough. And that my Maglite was too cumbersome. I plan to buy a pump shotgun , possibly a Remington 870, and Surefire light for it. Also a Surefire 6P for use with the .45.

My question is has anybody developed fighting techniques with a knife and flashlight? A handgun and flashlight or a shotgun with an attached light is easy to learn buy comparison with a knife and flashlight. We are the land of the midnight sun but it was dark enough that we could not tell who was a neighbor and who was a perp so nobody shot but the scumbags who didn't live there and therefore didn't care who was shot. This got me to wonder what if I was attacked while jogging or walking around the city. Of course it should be easy to decide who to stab and slash but I would feel more comfortable with a flashlight in my hand.

When shtf I know all thought and reason dissappears and would like to have training and practice to fall back on.
What I would do is not go looking out side when shots are fired especially in the dark. Let's say P.D. was on the trail of these guys and when they enter the street they see people with guns on there balcony, They would not know if the innocent home owner's protecting there neighborhood and home are involved in the crime. There are places in N.Y. where gangs go to another rival gang members houses and perform a drive by and the occupants in the house fire back having a result of a fire fight in the neighborhood. These Dirtbags don't care about the women next door who has a baby playing on the porch. The only thing to do is stay down and protect the occupants in the house from any if possibly forcible entry. The shotgun with the sure fire sounds like a good idea for home DEFENCE.


Are you saying that the cops took the guys AK-47 that he was using to protect his home with?

If this is the case our society if in deep crap and its time to take the law in our own hands .......


Yes but they are not entirely inocent. From what I have heard from their neighbors is that they are the ones responsible for bringing this to the neighborhood. Their (wanabe) gang markings are all over the place and everybody suspects drug use and dealing.


It took the law 10-12 minutes for the first patrol car to arrive even though they basically go up and down Spenard Road this time of night which is 2-3 blocks away. Another 30 seconds to a minute to find the house even thought they have been going there since Nov '98. The shootout took 1-2 minutes and the getaway took less than 30 seconds. The backup patrol cars took 18-20 minutes to arrive. None of them came with lights or sirens. 911 was swamped because everbody was calling including the family that had several rounds put through their house. For those first few minutes we were the law. We were legally defending our homes and most importantly our lives. The police did not dispute our right to defend ourselves and their only advice was to be sure or our target! Nobody shot because we were not sure of our targets and they were fleeing the back yard of the house in question and were moving into other peoples yards. I cannot be sure but I believe were a deterrant and the scubags went back the way they came even with a AK-47 blasting at them! The police did not want to say when or when not to shoot but they almost said just have bullets go through your house is reason enough.

Working on a professional level with LEO's for one year I have gained a greater appreciation of their daily sacrifice to society. But for the life of me I can't see why no arrests were made even when it is a known trouble spot. Because they're one street up the only problems I have had was loud music at 1:00am. I didn't know there was ganglike activities going on since Nov '98 until these two driveby shootings.

[This message has been edited by David Williams (edited 26 June 1999).]
I'm afraid this post has little to do with knives, and more to do with guns, but I hope I am not off topic in respect to this thread.


The ultimate home defense gun, in my estimation, is a customized pump shotgun, specifically a customized Remington 870.

I own a Remington 870 HD model, and am very pleased with it. I have shot thousands of rounds from it, from #03 buckshot to #07 birdshot, with never a hitch. However, if I were to use this shotgun for home defense, I would have it customized by Scattergun Technologies.

In my estimation, the additions offered by Scattergun Tech. are well worth the price, and were I in different circumstances, I would use a Scattergun Tech. pump shotgun for home defense.

However, I have a very curious two year old son and live in a 2 bedroom apartment. Therefore, I find it much safer to keep my Glock 19 in a lockable box next to the bed for home defense. Only when I am in the room is the key inserted in the lock. Therefore, only a twist of the key is needed to access the handgun. As my son grows older, other measures may be necessary, depending on his attitude toward guns. In any case, I deem education far better than ignorance, especially where guns are concerned, and therefore plan to teach my son about the responsibilities that gun ownership entails, rather than pretending that the problem doesn't exist, or that it can be resolved by confiscating legally owned guns.

Well, I've said my peace and then some. Thanks for listening.

Ryan Meyering

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


Why does the law being in the hands of the citizens, where it belongs, scare you?

I don't mean this to be derogatory; I've read many of your posts and respect what you say, but I don't understand why decent citizens taking the law into their own hands would be "scary." The way I read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the government does not have the right to take away our 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms, period. If the government does infringe this right (which it has) then it becomes illegitimate (which it is). The citizenry then has the right, even the obligation, to stand against the tyrannical government.

Even if the majority stand against us, it does not renounce our right to keep and bear arms. If the majority of America were to come forth against civil rights for black Americans, and to demand the reinstitution of slavery, would not the blacks be just in rebelling against such tyranny?

Might does not make right; this has been proven in our country time and again.

Ryan Meyering

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23

Ryan, thanks for the feedback. I agree with you almost totally, but felt from the description that the weapon confiscation in question was most likely justified and that the citizens in the first and subsequent posts would not best be described as “decent”. I was reacting to a rather strong response in regards to this confiscation, and on reflection decided my original post does not reflect my true feelings on the issue. Thank you for the eloquent reminder.

I understand now, it is a thin line that must be drawn .. everybody is allowed to own a gun, I just wish some people didn't have them, but thats the price of freedom and I'm not giving mine up, although Bill Klinton wants me to !

stjames, I obviously don't know the facts of the scenario, but I gave the homeowner the benefit of the doubt in this case. From the description given, it seemed to me that the homeowner was the victim of a driveby shooting and he retaliated with an AK-47.

Hopefully the AK-47 was legally owned, and the homeowner was a law-abiding citizen; as a life member of the NRA, I fully support heavy penalties for gun crimes, and fully support the rights of decent Americans to defend themselves, their families, and their homes.

Ryan Meyering

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23

Ryan, I DO NOT "support heavy penalties for gun crimes". I support heavy penalties for ALL crimes (especially violent), whether commited with guns, knives, club, etc.

When gun rights advocates say phrases like "gun crimes" we are playing into the hands of the anti-gun lobby and using their terminology. In essense when we attach firearms to crimes and other negative phrases we are, inadvertantly, demonizing the guns and not the criminals.

Wordage is extremely important to our rights, and I think we need to focus on how we say things. I'm not trying to pick on you, because a lot of gun advocates do it. I just thing we all need to be very careful whenever the subject of firearms is at hand, and carefully reprogram the way we think and speak. Not watching (or cutting back on) the liberal news media is a good place to start. They are doing a good job of changing good peoples' attitudes with propaganda and emotional drivel. It brainwashing really.

Very well said fenixforge, as were most replies to this post. Gun laws and then rights to own are a continuing concern of law abiding citezens in this country. Especially due to recent happenings at schools. However, what all those who are condeming these "tools" that were used in such crimes are forgetting is that it was the one handling the "tool/weapon" who is at fault and not the object with which he/she carried out the act. To what extent is this philosophy going to go? At which point will we outlaw Bic pens because some misguided student stabbed the teacher with it? How long must the law-abiding populous, (a minority it seems at times), going to be made to suffer the unjust rulings of a goverment that is trying to "protect" us from the evils in the world? And most importantly, when is common sense going to once again become common so that people can see the reality of their actions?

Well enough ranting for now, (even tho there is so much more that can be said). Maybe we will need to add a "Ranting Forum" so that opinions can be voiced openly without worrying about sticking to subject


p.s. Try being couteous to every stranger you meet, amazing how contagious it can be.
Good points about not shooting back. The light on the end of the shotgun wouldn't given them a return-return-fire target as well. The pump gun would be great for indoor protection, and I believe them to be safer with children around; though no gun is safe.
To what extent is this philosophy going to go? At
which point will we outlaw Bic pens because some misguided student stabbed the
teacher with it?

Great Point Jonathan,

Don;t forget that "trenchcoats" were "banned" , a monumental act of collective stupidity, to say the least. If I were still a student, I'd be tempted to start a "Textbook Mafia" to see if it would achieve similar resultrs.

I have since found out the AK-47 was illegally modified to fire full auto. The shooter is possibly out on parole. His shots were the ones that penetrated the innocent neighbors walls. All good reasons to confiscate a weapon except possibly the last one. I wouldn't want my gun taken for stray shots but I wouldn't want stray shots through my house either. The police are reluctant to comment so I can't confirm anything.


I am more concerned about shooting the wrong person than getting shot at. I don't hate all of my neighbors
So a Tac-Light is difinitely in the plan. And yes the shotgun is safer figuring my .308 will penetrate more walls then an AK-47 and I keep 230 grain Hardball in my .45.


Thanks for the link!


[This message has been edited by David Williams (edited 28 June 1999).]