The Gunting: An Alternative View Point

Discussion in 'Knife Reviews & Testing Archive' started by Mauser, Mar 9, 2001.

  1. Mauser

    Mauser

    35
    Jan 28, 2001
    1. The Gunting needs a black finish and clip. The clip and blade stick out with their shiny steel color stick out too much.

    2. The Gunting Needs A New Name. When most people see the word Gunting, they don't know what the hell it is. Some people may be turned off by the name, I know I am. I would suggest Attack Machine or Offensive Knife Unit or maybe the Gutting (i.e. to gut your opponent with).

    3. The Gunting can be used effectivley as an impact weapon, but it is not the best impact weapon ever designed as some have claimed. I would take a black jack, a billy club, or a good telescoping baton over the Gunting Drone anyday of the week. The Gunting gets its chief advantage from being "legal" to carry. In some areas you are more likely to get searched by a cop than assualted by a criminal. No use in going to jail for carrying an illegal impact tool.

    4. Take out the Tomahawk References
    The Gunting is not a Tomahawk and the Tomahawk references should be deleted from the training program. The Tomahawk is a superior weapon to the Gunting or most knives for that matter. The Gunting is not a Tomahawk and should not be alluded to as such.

    5. I don't think the spoon for changing grips is cool.

    I'm not a fan of changing grips or reverse grip, but for those who like to change grips and like reverse grip, I guess the spoon would be your deal, its not mine.

    6. The best part of the Gunting is the kinetic opening. This part is good. The knife handle is sturdy. The blade is okay, but you can't expect much from a folder.

    My Recommendation: Buy it if you are a knife collector. Buy it if you want to carry a folder. This folder is well made. This knife has an advantage in that it can be used as an impact weapon. I just wouldn't buy into some of the training regimen that surrounds the knife like non-lethal cutting and finger locks.

     
  2. jim_l_clifton

    jim_l_clifton

    Mar 31, 2000
    Mauser,
    Take a class with Bram!You are entitled to your opinion!By the way, I'll take a KUKRI(KNIFE) over a TOM.ANYTIME!
    jim

     
  3. Bugs3x

    Bugs3x

    Feb 21, 2001
    I just bought the large CRKT Apache, ltd edition with BT2 blade. Haven't carried or used it yet, so no comments on that.

    I did notice right away what a long handle it had. In just sitting around fiddling with it, quite by accident, I realized that holding in one's hand closed -- well, my hand -- there was a significant amount of aluminum handle protruding at each end. Furthermore, it was very comfortable to hold that way. Has made me even wonder it if wasn't designed as substitute yawara/kubotan. Provides a real alternative to using the blade, IMO.

    Bugs

     
  4. Brian_Turner

    Brian_Turner

    May 13, 1999
    I've got a couple of problems with your evaluation, Mauser. I don't really think that most of your evaluation deals with the knife, but rather with it's intent, and with Bram's training method.

    Your opinion, I guess. Personally, I find that polished clips pick up the color of the clothing around them, and thereby tend to blend even more than black. And since this isn't a knife to have the blade out and stalking with, I don't think that a black coated blade would really do much for the knife other than add to the already steep cost.

    Part if Spyderco's philosophy, and I would think common sense, is not to attach a purposefully offensive name to a knife. It can only work against you in a LEO's eyes, or in court. The knife isn't meant to be purchased by people looking for "Attack Machines", but rather by people looking for a defensive tool that affords a number of fighting alternatives.

    The Gunting is not designed to be the "best" impact tool, but simply to provide impact use as a non-lethal alternative to using the blade. A billy doesn't fit very well in your front pocket, either, and telescoping batons are outlawed in far more places than blades the size of the Gunting. As you mentioned, legal carry is an excellent advantage.

    Should we stop using the term "hammer grip" because a knife shouldn't be used as a hammer? Should the clip not be called a spoon clip because you can't eat with it? Tomahawk is used as a stylistic reference, not a suggestion of purpose. You're picking nits on the training methodology, not on the knife.

    But since it's there to help enable grip changes, I guess that you're saying it's perfect?

    Seriously. What you said is that if you like grip changes and reverse grip, then it's great, but you don't like grip changes and reverse grip. Think about it - you're talking about a style here, not the knife.

    So what you're saying (I think) is that the Gunting is a great knife for a fighting style you don't approve of? This knife, unlike most others, has a specific purpose.

    You're certainly entitled to your opinion of the Gunting's training method, but I think that you should base your evaluation of the knife itself more on the Gunting's suitability for it's specified purpose than to pick apart it's features in terms of general useability and suitability for another purpose altogether.


    [This message has been edited by Brian_Turner (edited 03-09-2001).]
     
  5. Mauser

    Mauser

    35
    Jan 28, 2001
    Actually I met a guy who referred to the Gunting as a "tomahawk". That statement was meant for him and any other person who thinks the Gunting is a type of tomahawk.

    Mad Dog knives gives its products cool names like Attack Thing. Spyderco could learn some lessons from Mad Dog and start giving its knives cool names instead of Delica and Gunting.

    I have a custom made fixed blade that I peronally named Attack Monster.

    I've never actually seen a court case where someone was fried over the name of his knife. I would be interested if anyone could specify specific court cases where this has happened.

    Was the Gunting designed for non-lethal cutting? I know this has been a much debated topic but I fall on the side that pulling a knife means that you are in a lethal situation and are justified in using lethal force. If I'm justified in using lethal force then I'm going to use lethal force.
    If I happen to disarm the opponent or stop him with cuts or stabs without killing him, well that would be good, I stopped the attack, but I'm not going to aim for non-lethal cuts when someone is trying to kill me. As I mentioned the only time you should ever pull a knife is when you are in lethal force encounters.

     
  6. Burke

    Burke Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 25, 1999
    Not trying to jump on your case, Mauser, but I could care less about the name of a knife. Call it the "Warm furry bunny rabbit" and if it's got the features I'm looking for in a knife, I'll buy it. I believe in substance over style. Regarding impact use, I would say that the Gunting is pretty effective as an addition to one's fist, falling in between bare hands and an open blade in terms of both lethality and legality. Just my opinion, and your's certainly seems to vary. [​IMG]
     
  7. Holymoly

    Holymoly

    45
    Dec 26, 2000
    Mauser if you do a search in the spyderco forum you will find all the answers there this is a old topic thats been played out..
    Sorry but ugh enough allready you must have better things to do with your time ..: )
     
  8. The Magician

    The Magician Illusionist

    Jan 19, 2000
    hmmm....
    ------------------
    Brian
    The first knife was probably used to cut stuff.

    [This message has been edited by bteel (edited 03-10-2001).]
     
  9. lifter4Him

    lifter4Him

    Sep 30, 1999
    Yup, bteel, definitely has an agenda there.
    Mauser, obviously you've never seen Bram work with this knife. And since Bram designed it, and Sal owns Spyderco, I think the name is gonna stay. [​IMG] But if you really like cool names, maybe you should look into Frost Cutlery [​IMG]
    Oh, and everything BrianTurner said.
     
  10. Woodie

    Woodie

    10
    Mar 1, 2001
    Attack Monster is not a cool name.

    I Tack Mons Her ain't bad though!
     
  11. BRAM

    BRAM

    Mar 9, 1999
    thank you Mike for letting me post..

    I have been out of the country and I just got back:
    Mauser: the name has meaning. It means to scissor the proncipole of motion used in the GUNTING; to open -close and to Escalate in force within the flow..
    Good thing about some of these martial arts terms with great connotative meanings..
    As for naming it something like Killer knife. attack knife..
    not in my life will I name a knife to describe actions that pigeon hole it into its usage: that of harming someone..
    sorry you don't like the name..rest of the world does..
    As I just came back from IWA in Germany demoning it to many LEO, Mi,itary and Security groups of Europe I found no problems wit the name..
    nor did I at SOF, Shot Show or anywhere else I've been..
    Like a car or boat fel free to RENAME your personal knife..

    As for TOMAHAWKING: its a conceptual motion: hammering effct thast is a gross motor skill that the shape , weight and design of the GUNTING allows for..
    yes Tomahawking..ANYONE can do the motion..
    First instinctive motion is "cover or flinch" second instinctive is "to get away- pushing" ( ahh Tomahawking motion)..
    GUNTING is designed to take advantage of that..

    You don't belive in non lethal response? Ok.
    I don't believe in lethal response as the only way...There are moral. legal and ethical considerations in my world..maybe not in yours..
    Anything out of context might look un usable, not real, but within the context lots of those non usable, "you don't like them", finger locks, joint locks, restraints, come-a-longs, cuffing techniques, hitting, controlling are done every day and for many years WITHOUT GUNTINGS ..all the GUNTING does is make some of that easier.
    I'm sorry you think no one is going to jail for carrying an impact tool...but if that tool is not allowed by law you will go to jail..as for being the best designed..thats a personal claim by somepeole who" suprise" have found it to be the best for them..
    they found out by using it..
    real time in the street..
    Each impact tool has its place..As a CLOSE RANGE IMPACT Tool, the GUNTING has a place of its own...

    No problem on the spoon clip for changing grips.seems thats OK with EVERYONE I show it to..but if you personally don't like it..no problem..you might not like that several big name Edged tool instructors teach grip changing andd several future SPYDERCO's will be coming out with this feature..
    The LEO and military community seems to like the feature aswel as the martial arts community..
    but you are not required too..
    Its personal..

    The Blade is OK but you can't expect much from a folder? Ok buy a fixed blade and forget the folder period..
    LOL..
    The compression lock makes it as sturdy as we can as compared to a fixed blade..Folders have many advantages,,such as going from impact to edged in the case of the GUNTING...
    accessiblity..
    I guess its small size is the factor in your saying you can't expect much from the GUNTING's blade? it can't be the CPM440V steel..
    or the cutting ability, the thrusting ability..

    Hey..no problemo..

    Thank you for looking into the knife and checking it out.. I hope you find a knife that meets your needs..

    bram

     
  12. Vet95LT1

    Vet95LT1 Banned BANNED

    351
    Jan 31, 2001
    IMHO the gunting is less effective as a fighter than my cold steel gunsite - the darned blade is just too short - started to buy 1 last wk but got a matriarch instead couldnt make myself buy a knife w/ a sub 3" blade - sorry <IMG SRC="confused.gif" border="0"> they should make a larger version - in tx ya can carry up tp 5 1/2 so i dont see the point of handicapping myself w/a sub 3" blade <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0">
     
  13. Bugs3x

    Bugs3x

    Feb 21, 2001
    Just checked Mauser's only other topic on this forum. Seems both were started same day, and both exactly same style.

    It is too bad when folks can only apparently feel good, by putting something or someone else down. It's sad when a person is even confused about the opinion behind the put-down. Insecurity is a terrible thing.


    ------------------
    Asi es la vida

    Bugs
     
  14. Mauser

    Mauser

    35
    Jan 28, 2001


    I never feel good when I have to tell someone that a particular knife or methodology sucks. It saddens me when I buy knives or see other people buy knives that suck. I do not gain any security from buying a knife that sucks. I gain insecurity from buying a knife that sucks, because that knife will probably not perform well when I have to defend my life.

    A knife review is usually going to be for a knife or against a knife or somewhere in between. A negative knife review will have negative information about the knife, that is just the way the world works.

    My knife reviews are honest, I don't have any products to sell. None of my knife reviews were intended to hurt anyones feelings or put people down. I don't gain anything by seeing and buying a knife that is no good and neither does the public.

    I find nothing confusing about the Gunting review. I said the knife had good qualities and some bad ones. I said I didn't quite agree with all of the methodology behind it. I really did not agree with the fellow that I met who said that the Gunting was a "tomahawk". Pretty straight forward.

    It seems that some people have a doctrinaire "all or nothing attitude." You have to agree with them 100% of the time or else they will scorn you and call you names.

    It seems that many people are very sensitive about their knives and their knife training. I encountered this attitude many times when I posted my arguments against reverse grip many months ago. Well all I can say to this, is that it is just a knife and don't be to concerned what other people think about you, your knife or your knife training.




     
  15. BRAM

    BRAM

    Mar 9, 1999
    Well TACTICAL KNIVES is out.. I guess an alternative view on the GUNTING is that it works..
    of course I've been out on the road teaching @ ASLET, Vancouver, Miami Beach, Sanford , Nurmburg, New orleans..and the LEO community and the military seem to really like the Gunting..
    Maybe some of the atending LEO's will stop by this review and give their opinion..in print rather than what they told me....

    Mauser. I find your review to be open..and I think you thought it out..but I said thank you to you before for looking at the GUNTING..
    But now you can see some others view..
    CALIBER magazine of GERMANY
    EXCALIBER of France
    MESSER of Germany
    FIRE of France
    TACTICAL KNIVES of USA...
    the Police Magazines are just coming out in the next months..

    And its overwhelmingly GREAT response..
    so I guess it meets the needs of the folks using it..
    Seems "tomahawking" is one of the favorite parts of using the GUNTING ..

    anyways..have a great day all of you..
    Thanks for caring to check out the MBC GUNTING...

    PS: it has a black clip now!!!
     
  16. Full Tang Clan

    Full Tang Clan

    981
    Jul 22, 2000
    Hey Bram!,

    Just to let everyone know that, by a fluke, I discovered recently that Bram and I have a mutual friend in an arnis master. Bram studied with him, and I worked with him.

    Any-hoo, just be assured that it was brought to my attention from my friend that the Gunting is by no means, an overnight idea. It's not a product which was made on a whim as a reply to all the "tactical" knives which are all the rage.

    My arnis-master friend/colleague told me of a "friend who designed a knife based on the principles of balisong fighting, yet legal in all the states...a knife design which has been evolving for 13 years." I asked him what the name of his friend was, and he replied, "Bram."

    To which I asked, "Bram Frank?"

    To which he replied, "Yes. Bram Frank."

    Conclusion: The Gunting's design, whether you understand it or not, has been studied and perfected for over 10 years!

     
  17. Sal Glesser

    Sal Glesser Moderator Moderator

    Dec 27, 1998
    Hi Mauser. The production of the "Gunting" by Spyderco has a long history as a number of people were involved. Trying to make everyone involved happy was a learning experience.

    Your evaluation was fine. Perhaps too judgemental? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean "it sucks". To say that makes it sound as though your opinion is somehow universal truth. To some that may appear as a rather egocentric and immature statement.

    Many highly experienced people (more than 50 involved) took many years and much development to make this knife become a reality, not to mentioned expenses. They believed it was worth the effort.

    As you mature in views of Martial Blade Craft in general, I think (hope) that you eventually realize the value of "not drawing blood" if it can be avoided.

    On the Gunting, we can "agree to disagree".

    As to your thinking that your "opinion" is somehow more valid than another's "opinion" on a subjective issue, is, in my "opinion", perhaps a little narrow minded?

    Everyone that visits here wants to know your opinion. That's why we visit this forum...to share and respect each others opinions

    Just some thoughts to share.

    sal

    ------------------
    "There seems to be an amazing connection between what people do... and what happens to them"




    [This message has been edited by Sal Glesser (edited 04-15-2001).]
     
  18. Mauser

    Mauser

    35
    Jan 28, 2001
    When did I ever specifically say that the Gunting sucked? All I said is that I people have the right to say that knives suck in their reviews. How else are people going to know when to buy or not to buy a knife?

    Actually I never said the Gunting "sucked". I said in my first review of the Gunting:

    1. Gunting is well made

    2. I recommended buying it for people who collect knives and for people who want to carry folders. I consider the Gunting to be a unique and special design and I think it would fit well into any knife collection. At no time did I ever insult the development of the Gunting or say that it was hastily put together. Read more carefully.

    I recommended that people who like to carry folders should buy the knife. (Spyderco should at least be happy about this)

    3. I said that the Gunting has an advantage in that it can be used as an impact weapon and can be carried legally in many jurisdictions.

    4. I said the kinetic opening was good and cool.


    People tend to glean negative information and overlook positive information.

    I'm sorry if my review offended anyone. If it offended you, it says something more about yourself than it does me. If you were offended by my review I think you are a sensitive person. There is nothing wrong with being sensitive, women like sensitivity.

     
  19. PROTECTOR

    PROTECTOR

    253
    Jan 1, 2000
    Hey Mauser,

    I am an FMA instructor and an LEO Defensive Tactics instructor. I was also a Gunting skeptic until I recently attended a weekend seminar with Bram on the Gunting knife.

    Bram pointed out that almost all of the design features of the Gunting come from FMA principles or styles. My style of FMA is a little more hit/cut oriented than Bram's, but the principles of the design carry over and it works great for my system. The impact and pressure point aspects of the knife work well for LEO control holds and locks, but would not be my first choice in serious self-defense struggle.

    I did give it my highest compliment, though, I am now carrying one as my primary knife. Just out of curiosity what would be your ideal self-defense folder?
     
  20. mpayne

    mpayne

    668
    Aug 14, 1999
    Say what you like about the Gunting....until SHOTSHOW, I really had no clue what this thing was...I figured it was some sort of huinting gadget or something..UNTIL I had my personal demonstation from BRAM in the Spyderco Booth......... At way less than half-speed, Frank wailed on me, pinched my thumbs, my fingers, my ear.......and then drug it across my arm........Needless to say, I got the message and was grateful he took it easy on me [​IMG] For what it is designed for, IT IS GREAT.

    ------------------
    Knives & Things
    Mike Payne
     

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