the heirarchy of knife steels

S

Skytorn

Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
110
There are a lot of steel types, none of which have any kind of intuitive name to them--and then we have guys like Cold Steel muddying the water with their "San Mai III steel". It makes a newbie confused.

I know that heat treatment apparently plays a much greater role in a knife's quality but I figured steels still matter a lot, common-sense speaking. Can someone outline a ranking of the steels that major companies work with, in terms of hardness, durability, etc.? If it'd be easier, a ranking in general quality will do as well. Thanks!
 
There's a great FAQ by Joe Talmadge over in the Maintenance and Tinkering forum.

Link

Its a few years since the last update, so some of the newest steels aren't listed.
 
Generally speaking, each steel has its own properties that makes them better or worse than others in different applications. Depending on what you intend on doing with it, your needs from a steel may differ from mine or anyone else's. There are different categories, so to speak, in which I, personally, place different steels.

Super steels
-ZDP-189
-CPM M4
-S90V
etc.

Midrange/General Use
-S30V
-VG10
-154CM
-1095
etc.

Lower end
-AUS 8
-440a
etc.

Of course, as you mentioned, each steel's quality will be based on the maker of the steel. I am a big fan of Crucible steels. Also, each company may have their steels treated differently. For example, Chris Reeve's S30V is on the softer side. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, just how he likes his knives to be.

Hope this helps.
 
Last edited:
Skytorn said:
guys like Cold Steel muddying the water with their "San Mai III steel". It makes a newbie confused.
Click to expand...

San Mai as I understand it refers to layers of steel, a harder core (to provide better edge retention) with softer laminates on the sides (usually to provide flexibility, or for better corrosion resistance). You can see the weld line as you sharpen the blade. Fallkniven does a similar thing. It is a different way of achieving what differential tempering tries to achieve - good cutting ability at the edge and overall flexibility so the blade doesn't snap.

Hope that helps.
 
Is 440c really lower end? I thought it was 440a that was lower end and that 440c was a premium steel.
 
Skytorn said:
I figured steels still matter a lot, common-sense speaking. Can someone outline a ranking of the steels that major companies work with, in terms of hardness, durability, etc.? If it'd be easier, a ranking in general quality will do as well. Thanks!
Click to expand...
Yes steel does matter, because in the end HT is not magic and can't make up for the elements.

Other than that there's no official ranking, it'll be all highly subjective and desired use of the steel decides a lot too.

What you can do is sort the knife steel composition chart by Carbon, in descending order. Plus look at the technology. High alloy, complex steels made by PM or CPM or something like that are more likely to be considered in the super steels.
Again, that alone doesn't mean the steel is very good for every application, but might give you some idea.
 
Although heat treating is definitely important, you still need to start with a good steel. There never was a good knife made from lousy steel.
 
"San Mai 3" is a fancy name for CS's laminated steel. Laminated steel is the basic term. BTW -Kudos to Mora for making the least expensive laminated steel.
 
Skytorn said:
There are a lot of steel types, none of which have any kind of intuitive name to them--and then we have guys like Cold Steel muddying the water with their "San Mai III steel". It makes a newbie confused.
Click to expand...
If you're such a newbie, why would you say Cold Steel 'muddies the water' with their San Mai III? In fact, what does that mean?
 
Skytorn said:
There are a lot of steel types, none of which have any kind of intuitive name to them--and then we have guys like Cold Steel muddying the water with their "San Mai III steel". It makes a newbie confused.

I know that heat treatment apparently plays a much greater role in a knife's quality but I figured steels still matter a lot, common-sense speaking. Can someone outline a ranking of the steels that major companies work with, in terms of hardness, durability, etc.? If it'd be easier, a ranking in general quality will do as well. Thanks!
Click to expand...

+1 on the steel FAQ sticky.

Quality has nothing to do with the performance properties of an alloy.

Various alloys are chosen because each has a set of properties. No one alloy maxes out in all properties, so you have to compromise and choose an alloy that has a good set of properties for the use you are designing for. What you want the knife to do will determine which alloys the designer will be looking to use.

If you new to cutlery, choose a knife from a major manufacturer and let them worry about what is an appropriate alloy for the purpose of that knife. That is their job and the major companies such as Spyderco, Benchmade, and Kershaw do a very good job at it. Buck and Cold Steel do a good job too.

Most alloys will perform the basic function of a knife just fine. So don't sweat it over feeling like you have to choose the very best one.

Geometry of the blade matters more than the alloy.
 
philwar said:
If you're such a newbie, why would you say Cold Steel 'muddies the water' with their San Mai III? In fact, what does that mean?
Click to expand...

It means he's confused. "Muddies the water" is a term implying that things aren't clear, as they would be with "clean" water.

I don't think he was attacking CS, he was merely confused. I don't know why you're doubting his "newbie" status with the "If you're such a newbie" comment.
 
Edgyone said:
San Mai as I understand it refers to layers of steel, a harder core (to provide better edge retention) with softer laminates on the sides (usually to provide flexibility, or for better corrosion resistance)..
Click to expand...

San Mai is simply the Japanese words for Three (San) Layers (Mai). the III on the end must be their "model" number or something. but yes, the idea is a laminated blade.

Fallkniven use VG-10 in the middle for the edge and 440c on the outsides for abrasion resistance, flexibility and etc.

Edgyone said:
It is a different way of achieving what differential tempering tries to achieve - good cutting ability at the edge and overall flexibility so the blade doesn't snap.
Click to expand...

ummmm, traditionally forged Katana are both laminated AND differentially tempered.
 
sambo. said:
San Mai is simply the Japanese words for Three (San) Layers (Mai). the III on the end must be their "model" number or something. but yes, the idea is a laminated blade.

Fallkniven use VG-10 in the middle for the edge and 440c on the outsides for abrasion resistance, flexibility and etc.

ummmm, traditionally forged Katana are both laminated AND differentially tempered.
Click to expand...

Sambo, thanks for your additions. FYI, for what it's worth:

1) Fallkniven F1, as an example, uses VG10 cores laminated with 420J2, not 440c. As to the reasons why they use 420J, I understand it to be a combination of stain resistance and flexibility (not sure about abrasion resistance, VG10 has pretty good abrasion resistance but you could be right). I really love my F1, the PXL folder is also awesome but that of course has the SGPS central laminate which for me has been more time consuming to sharpen - I've forgotten what it has laminated on the outside (?420J also), I'll look it up later :)

2) Katana are not the only type of differentially tempered blade... I did not say that blades must be one or the other. So, to be clear, there are laminated blades, differentially tempered blades and there are also blades that combine the two technologies (eg. traditionally forged katana). :thumbup:
 
Last edited:
Edgyone said:
1) Fallkniven F1, as an example, uses VG10 cores laminated with 420J2, not 440c. As to the reasons why they use 420J, I understand it to be a combination of stain resistance and flexibility (not sure about abrasion resistance, VG10 has pretty good abrasion resistance but you could be right).
Click to expand...

i'll take your word for it :thumbup:

Edgyone said:
I really love my F1, the PXL folder is also awesome but that of course has the SGPS central laminate which for me has been more time consuming to sharpen - I've forgotten what it has laminated on the outside (?420J also), I'll look it up later :)
Click to expand...

is that the funky "3G" steel they've started using?

i've heard it makes for an awesome blade that really holds an edge well, but the tradeoff is that it's something of a PITA to sharpen.

i suppose i'll find out for myself when i eventually get a TK-6 (gah, unexpected outlays and bills have prevented me from putting in an order for the TK, and S1, F1 and A1 blanks).
 
Tradeoffs Tradeoffs Tradeoffs.

This is like asking "What is the best car?"

One person will say Ferrari 360 because it's fast around the track. Another will say their Ford F250 because they can pick up a full size Xmas tree in it. A third and very manly bladeforums father will say their Toyota Sienna minivan because it holds their 8 kids and all their soccer gear. Someone else will say a BMW M5 because it does everything well but nothing amazingly.
 
For the record.

philwar said:
If you're such a newbie, why would you say Cold Steel 'muddies the water' with their San Mai III? In fact, what does that mean?
Click to expand...

I'm a newbie because I'm new to bladeforums and have never purchased a knife above $20 (the most expensive knife I own is a 1st edition Cold Steel GI Tanto, incidentally). I read more than I post, trying to learn as much as I can, keep a humble attitude.

"muddies the water" as explained already means to confuse. CS's marketing videos state that it's a steel, while the reading that I've done--and Lynn's own explanation--explains that it's a sandwich of a softer steel with a different harder steel in the middle. Well, that sounds like (old) new tech but not really a new steel type to me. That's all!
~~~~~~~~~
Anyway.

Most of the steels I've heard of have been answered for, more or less...however, I'm wondering where 1055, and Busse's INFI, fit on the scale.

Also, which of these steels will not rust?

Thanks!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top