The line has become too blurred

I just have a general interest in many aspects of the outdoors. I prefer to sleep in my own fart rack and to have a hot shower in the morning, then watch Fareed Zakaria with a big cup of coffee. IF I happen to bugger up and get stuck outside for the night, or do it intentionaly, I want to have some basic outdoor knowledge to supplement my own experience. I don't get all twisted over nomenclature or themes. And I've always taken this "survivalist" malarkey with a grain of salt. Kind of how I steer away from the "Practical Tactical" crowd. As in most aspects of life, outdoor knowledge/skills can be more or less to you, dependant on level of interest and desire. I like being outside but have no desire to sleep in a cave eating worms and drinking my own piss.
 
To me, and I am only saying to me, bushcraft is getting out using and practicing, even playing around with skills. It's essentially fun practice, where critical learning takes place. Grown up scouts.
Survival is being in an undesirable situation, and applying and adapting those practiced skills to keep you alive get you either rescued, or out on your own.

YMMV.

Word.
 
Jim Craig said:
To me, and I am only saying to me, bushcraft is getting out using and practicing, even playing around with skills. It's essentially fun practice, where critical learning takes place. Grown up scouts.Survival is being in an undesirable situation, and applying and adapting those practiced skills to keep you alive get you either rescued, or out on your own.YMMV.Word.
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That's approximately where I'm at although I do make a distinction between “bushcraft” as in “bushcraft-proper” and “neo-bushcraft”..............I've said before, and I'm certain I'll say again, that to me the ideal model of bushcraft is when we shipped “handy folk” to the new and alien land that was Australia. Typically a kind of agriculturally aware chap or guy with other useful tradesman type skills that could adapt to the available climate. It could be a bodger, or stockman, or mebe someone that knew Culpeper's Herbal, something like that, that could find a niche in a developing culture doing rough work and getting his hands dirty. Someone with a broad knowledge not just in theory but in application of tools and techniques, that was pragmatic enough to learn new tools and techniques. The well rounded handy fella that would not be too phased by the bush, and could not only scratch out a living there but thrive. I contend that the stuff we see now labelled Bushcraft bears scant resemblance, and that's why I call in Neo-Bushcraft. Far from being open to new materials and methods its is dogmatic and clinging. It's more like a retro-costume party invoked to use the tools and methods of 200yrs ago. I think if the bushman proper of old had thought and behaved liked that, and not taken advantage of every resource at their disposal, they would have been at a considerable disadvantage. No proper bushman bushcrafting would have wilfully snubbed stuff just to use gear and methods that was 200yrs out of date. But that's the difference between Bushcraft and Neo-Bushcraft, they weren't playing at it and the stakes were for real...................Apart from dividing up the bushcraft meaning to add a bit more precision I totally agree with you.
 
what is frightening, is when our personal definition of something conflicts with another's, and that conflict frightens us. :rolleyes:
 
baldtaco-II said:
That's approximately where I'm at although I do make a distinction between “bushcraft” as in “bushcraft-proper” and “neo-bushcraft”.............
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Nicely put. I would put "Northern Bushcraft" of our Canadian brothers under "bushcraft-proper" too.
 
I think anyone who spends time in the outdoors whether for hunting, rock-climbing, remote-mountain biking, kayaking/canoeing, skiing, camping/backpacking, bird-watching, day hiking, or the general recreational enjoyment of bush-crafting or practicing primitive living skills, needs to have some basic level of skills generally associated with “survival”.

Avoiding the threats often associated with “survival” such as dehydration, hypo/hyperthermia, mechanical injuries, exposure are what I would focus on regarding survival and that can happen to just about anyone regardless of caution and preparation. Having the basic skills, training and minimum of essential equipment is prudent insurance for anybody, including the so-called primitive or bushcraft enthusiasts. I do think those practices contribute greatly to the level of skill necessary for “survival”, but even those skill-sets don’t cover the more essential survival skills such as signaling, first-aid or just trained to recognize the onset of threatening conditions be it weather or health related.

Most enjoy the art of constructing a rain/wind proof shelter, building a fire, purifying water or fabricating items to make outdoors more enjoyable. Those skills are important to anybody that may be more than a day’s distance from civilization or if they have a mechanical injury that prevents them from moving fast or far. I would hazard to say the basic skills of bushcraft are the foundational skills necessary to learn survival.

If I know the basics of how to make a primitive fire, I have the knowledge and skill to use a lighter or match even under more extreme conditions. If I know the threats of conduction, convection, radiation and evaporation and have practiced improvised or primitive construction, I know I can take a poncho or siltarp and make are much faster shelter to avoid exposure to extreme weather conditions. The same principles apply.

Other skills such as navigation/orienteering, signaling, basic/advanced first aid are staples for all.

I think where people get hung up (especially watching “reality survival shows”) is the need to trap, snare, forage or fish for food. Under most conditions, food isn’t a necessity for a 72-hour survival situation. Sure, there are extreme temperatures or activities that require increased caloric intake, but most conditions require more immediate emphasis on first aid, shelter, signaling and water.

I think the skills and practice of bushcraft/primitive practices provide a good foundation for general survival. Not all will want to delve as deep as some, but all should acquire the skill and training necessary for those basics often needed during actual situations where immediate actions are needed to avoid incapacitation; first aid and protection from the elements. The subsequent skills are needed to survival beyond that (fire, water) and signal for rescue.

ROCK6
 
The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that survival skills are really life skills that are mostly cerebral and bushcraft skills are more of a knowledge of the physical/natural world.

To me when I think of survival I'm thinking of pre-trip planning, risk assessment, mitigating panic and/or shock, group dynamics, knowing when and when NOT to take action etc.

Bushcraft is knowing what plant can be used as an anticeptic or to be used as food, how to find good fire material, how to start a fire, how to build a shelter, how to make a net to catch some fish etc.

Thinking of it like this is making more sense to me. Survival isn't a "woods only" option nor is bushcraft really relavent sitting here at a computer where I can call up a pizza. So maybe a good way to think of it is as complimentary skills rather than a this or that proposition. For me the survival(cerebral) aspect comes into play long before the bushcraft aspect. Knowing how to start a fire(bushcraft) is a skill that can save your butt but a better skill is to mitigate(survival) the things that happen that would cause you to need a fire in the first place.
 
abo4ster said:
Nicely put. I would put "Northern Bushcraft" of our Canadian brothers under "bushcraft-proper" too.
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I can go with that, especially when I consider the goings on around the Hudson's Bay company. I'm sure there are many potential candidates from itinerant ranch hands, cowboys drifting between work, to those that were forced from their countryside jobs here through industrialization that roamed with their trade tools trying to scratch out a living wherever they could. And obvious contenders are Australian Abos, Eskimos, and whatever other tribal groups that walk the line between primitive and modern whilst drawing heavily on accrued field skills....................... I pick the shipment of folks to Australia as an ideal model simply on the basis of; Well “bush” - it's the name of the game for one. I'm sure at some point a TV twonk is going to pinch “going walkabout” too, but we'll all know to whom it really belongs. That for size and content it must have felt like another planet in comparison to here. Yet with a general aptitude for rural skills many people adapted to that alien-scape very readily. An immediate gist that springs to mind that you may not have seen I'll shall draw from is this series and its spin-offs. Stick three people like that in Australia or smallholding in the trees on the edge of a prairie in the USA and I think they'd cope well at making the bush / the woods work well for them at solving real world problems........................Aside from necessity being a key feature of bushcraft-proper, I think that starts to introduce another key difference between the real McCoy and this modern let's go retro neo-bushcraft malarkey, and that is what it means to have skills. As I see it amongst a lot of this neo-bushcraft stuff I could also add the rather two dimensional notion of the sufficiency of rote learning. You know, “I've made my 50th fig 4 trap and have never so much as caught a cold with it, tomorrow I'm going to take a picture of my 51st”. “Blah says that I need a knife just like his to carve spoons, and carving spoons is essential, tomorrow will be my 100th”. I can't knock that in itself, it's basic, it's fun, but how much of that stuff is just the same stuff regurgitated round and round. Hell, I think a half decent actor could memorize most of the popular neo-bushcraft books in not long at all and spit it back out on stage................................ Again, not knocking it, it's a start, but for how many is it also the end. “We went to the wood, we lit a fire, we sat under our blanket, we turned some twigs into kindling and made a birch bark cup like the book says to”. I can't knock that either, I wouldn't want to 'cos some of it is fun play. I also think that alone it is dry and insufficient to account for what is happening in a genuine bushman doing bushcraft. Sure some stuff does have to be that way, identifying fungi is a good example. It's scanned and matches a template and it is either right or it is wrong. To me though, unlike chess expertise which concerns a lot of scanning and matching templates true bushcraft skills are a bit like intelligence as opposed to memory, it is what you do when you don't know what to do. In the case of that series I cited above they illustrate heavily using the Stevens book, pretty much a manual for farming during the replicated period. Stick 'em in Australia to do bushcraft and its insufficient, it's just the start of it, just part of a base platform to make intelligent best guesses from when solving novel bush related problems.................................. That, right there is where the skills are whether it be in the examples I've already used or guy now that's wilderness smart enough to guess that he can probably cut a bit of antler off one of his reindeer to make a brake and get his sled home more easily. It wasn't a “survival situation”, it was an inconvenience to his objectives and he solved it. People that I believe to be proper authentic bushcrafters exhibit excellence at that kind of functioning. They don't just know facts about stuff they can reproduce in highly contrived situations designed to make themselves feel good about passing whilst dressed up in reenactment outfits. As a primacy I think proper bushmen excel at solving real lifestyle problems in the outdoors by drawing on an accrued skills bases, but that “craft” element only comes across as mastery when that wisdom base is drawn upon over and over again to resolve situations he didn't already know how to do. A genuine woods intelligence if you will.
 
Bear Claw Chris Lappe said:
This is why when people ask for recommendations for books on "survival", I ask if they mean "stay alive until rescue" or "wilderness LIVING" skills.

There is overlap, and no set line between the two, but they are not the same thing.
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That pretty much sums it up for me.

"Stay alive until rescue" is probably the bottom line. What do you need to do that? And the answers will depend on your own physical needs and whether you are in the tropics or the antarctic - or somewhere in between.

I think that these days, if you can "stay alive until rescue" you are probably good to go for a few days camping/wilderness living as long as you have water and something to eat handy. Luxury outdoors sleeping? That is another matter.
 
Again, both terms are open to individual interpretaion. Death, aka 'failure to survive" can happen in an instant, or an hour, or a day in which case "stay alive a few days" goes out the window. Also there is a modern (recent?) expectation that rescue is forthcoming. Many times we see rescue efforts turn into body recovery efforts. Or even a mysterious missing persons report that isn't resolved for years if ever.

Again I say, there is no hard and fast line between outing skills and survival skills. It varies with the culture, environment and individual mindset. The wide variety of interpretations of the terms, and catagorizing of skillsets, and disparity of skills among different people does not scare me in the least.
 
Once upon a time I watched a youtube video where the presenter was discussing how a bushcraft knife and a survival knife is not the same thing. Paraphrasing, his point was that a bushcraft knife is for when you want to get yourself into a wilderness situation and a survival knife is for when you want to get yourself out of a wilderness situation. I laughed and laughed.

I wonder what kind of world he lives in. Does his bushcraft knife morph into a survival knife if his intentions shift from "getting in" to "getting out?"

I view it all the same, all the time. If I'm hiking or fishing or camping or rock climbing I'm more likely to end up stuck overnight (or two or three nights) than when I take a trip to the market, so I simply take what I would expect to need if I were to need it. My gear never changes because I don't see how having survival gear and bushcraft gear as separate kits is going to do me any good if I'm out bushcrafting and I get lost, stuck, or injured. The Angel Gabriel or a pack of Valkyries is not going to descend out of parted clouds to swap a survival knife for my bushcraft knife when I decide to "switch gears."

In sum, the whole concept of a survival knife, or ANY survival gear, as something distinct from what you would expect to routinely carry for any excursion is silly. Camping or wilderness living or bushcrafting may not be about survival, but they can be, and reality isn't going to give a crap about any line arbitrarily drawn to separate them.
 
For those that saw the thread about the dad who went hiking with his two sons on a mild late-Winter day - and then the storm with cold rain and sleet hit - and then he turned down the offer of a ride from a local - and then they walked past the drive to the lodge - and then there was silence. They all died from dad's inability to either recognize there was a risk, assess the degree of risk, or get his ego out of the way. What we usually mean by "outdoor skills," per se, were not the primary issue. Can we not agree that the mental parts comes first?

An Illinois man and his two young sons have died after going missing overnight on a hiking trail in Reynolds County, Missouri.

Reynolds County Coroner Jess McSpadden says the Decareaux's are from Waterloo, Illinois.

According to Reynolds County Sheriff Tom Volner, David Decareaux 36 and his boys, 10-year-old Dominic and 8-year-old Grant, were hiking on the Ozark Trail near Black, Missouri.
Volner says the hikers left camp Saturday around 11 a.m. When they left, it was around 60 degrees. And the three were wearing light clothing and had no rain gear.
However, Volner says the weather changed that afternoon with cooler weather, heavy rains and flash flooding occurring.

Around 2 p.m., a passerby in the Sutton's Bluff area last saw Decareaux and his boys.

Then around 6-7 p.m., the camping lodge contacted the sheriff's office concerned about the Decareaux and boys' safety. The sheriff arrived at the lodge and talked to the Decareaux's wife. She said it wasn't uncommon for her husband to hunker down during a storm to let it pass.

A search ensued from that time until midnight. Volner says areas of the trail were impassable due to water. The search resumed at 7 a.m. Sunday, and Decareaux and his sons were found on the trail several hours later.
When the hikers were found, they were soaking wet. Temperatures had dropped into the 20s.

The sheriff says the David Decareaux was pronounced dead at the scene. Decareaux's sons were taken to an Ellington hospital and administered CPR before being pronounced deceased.

A passerby in a car asked them if they wanted a ride because he noticed the man and his children were wet. The father declined the ride back to the lodge and instead told the driver they would "tough it out." It's speculated that the father was disoriented from hypothermia. It is reported that the father and kids actually walked pass the lodge and kept walking for another 30 minutes.

Their 4 month old lab survived and was by the families [sic] side when they were discovered.
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This is an excellent thread, one of the best I've read through in a long time actually. I don't have much to offer that has not been said. Most of the folks that hang around this particular part of the forum know the difference between "bushcrafting" and "survival". In the end none of it really matters much as they have mostly become terms to sell books, gear, knives, DVD's etc.

Being an avid hiker, it makes sense to learn a thing or two about helping myself out of an emergency situation. If I got lost, I don't think I would start tracking and sizing up the game trails, laying down snares and figure 4 traps. In fact, I am positive that I will never have to set a trap, spear for fish, burn out a canoe or make my own brain tanned clothes. But the skills are fun to practice, and the study on the subject has always been of great interest to me.

Learning to build fires using different methods, finding water, making shelter, signalling... Now those are things that could come in handy if i was lost or injured in the mountains. And yeah, I'd want to get found and make it home to my nice bed!
 
I think to each their own. Skills and preps are good in my view so what others think about bushcraft or survival doesn't much matter to me. If their beliefs get them out of the house and into the woods than more power to them. Even better if they have enough preps on hand to deal with some unexpected badness.
 
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