The Logic of Heat Treating Oils

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On every knife forum we all see a bunch of posts either asking about or championing everything from motor oil to bacon fat for quenching blades. I'm not sure how well any of these work, but I do have a question:

Why not use a dedicated heat treating oil? I mean, would anyone use motor oil or cutting oil or bacon fat in place of automatic transmission fluid in an expensive car? Would anyone melt lard and pour it into the tank of his/her new hydraulic press? I don't think so. So then why don't people use the same logic with heat treating blades?

Just wondering?

John Frankl
 
Most people do not want go through the trouble and expense of having a minimun order of one 55 gallon barrel of quenchant shipped to them, with no first hand experience with the product.
 
Real quench oil works for me :D I used vegtable oil many years ago with good results but the real stuff work much better.

Heat Bath will sell small quantitys, $100 minimum. Brownells sells smaller quantitys and I think K&G sells it by the gal.
 
I believe it adds to the mystery of your shop. Where is the charm in telling a visiter that you are using Texaco type "A" quenching oil. You would get the same responce you would get when he asked; what type of oil do you use in your pick up truck? Oh, I use Mobil One. He's thinking; Milk toast.
Now if you tell the guy you are using a mix of goose grease cut with 30 percent yak tallow and 25 percent whale blubber, and just a few drops of oil from a beaver's sex gland, now you can start a conversation with a statement like that. Even if I were using some generic quench I would not admit to it. I am a story teller at heart, like many of the makers that post here and I enjoy sharing in the b.s. and I also enjoy spreading a bit around. We should have a
B.S. contest and find out who shovels the largest amount on this forum.
I nominate Indian George, nuff said. :jerkit: Fred
 
Actually, lots of people substitute materials in a number of areas. (Many people use vegetable oil in their deisel engines, for example.) Many things, including quenching, are not an exact science.

Personally, talking out of my ass with no experience at all, I doubt "real" quenching oils are much better than any number of cheaper alternatives. People have been quenching steel for a long, long, long time. Without the latest and greatest quenching oils.
 
I stopped by the Chevron oil distributor today. They can order me a 55 gal drum of Chevron Quenching Oil 70 for $8 per gal. It doesnt come in 5 gal pails unfortunatly.
Does anybody use just plain Mineral Oil? Doesnt Ed Caffrey use it? It is about $12 per gal. Tough quench is $20 plus frieght.
 
"Don't assume that people are logical !!!!"

I don't. But it is funny that they are only selectively illogical. I still don't see anyone using lard instead of ATF or hydraulic oil.

"Most people do not want go through the trouble and expense of having a minimun order of one 55 gallon barrel of quenchant shipped to them, with no first hand experience with the product."

First, someone has already mentioned that there are many, many ways to get smaller quantities than that. Second, most people also do not want to go to the "trouble and expense" of paying hundreds of dollars for a great knife when they could pay tens of dollars for an okay knife. But many of the people on this forum ask precisely that people pay good money for very good knives, and they should be willing to do the same regarding the materials used in the construction of said knives.

"I believe it adds to the mystery of your shop. Where is the charm in telling a visiter that you are using Texaco type "A" quenching oil. You would get the same responce you would get when he asked; what type of oil do you use in your pick up truck? Oh, I use Mobil One. He's thinking; Milk toast.
Now if you tell the guy you are using a mix of goose grease cut with 30 percent yak tallow and 25 percent whale blubber, and just a few drops of oil from a beaver's sex gland, now you can start a conversation with a statement like that. Even if I were using some generic quench I would not admit to it. I am a story teller at heart, like many of the makers that post here and I enjoy sharing in the b.s. and I also enjoy spreading a bit around."

Thank you, at least, for being honest, if somewhat tongue -in-cheek. That is one approach, sort of like recycling car springs and stuff.

"Actually, lots of people substitute materials in a number of areas. (Many people use vegetable oil in their deisel engines, for example.) Many things, including quenching, are not an exact science."

That something is not 100% exact should motivate us to strive for maximum possible accuracy, not become an excuse for even less accuracy.

"Personally, talking out of my ass with no experience at all, I doubt "real" quenching oils are much better than any number of cheaper alternatives. People have been quenching steel for a long, long, long time. Without the latest and greatest quenching oils."

Don't really know where to begin on this one. Sort of like saying people have been shooting guns for a long, long, long time so there is really no difference between a blunderbuss and an HK submachine gun. I guess this sort of accentuates my first statement about the absence of logic.

John Frankl
 
Not an exact science ?? Industrially it certainly is ,we want to know exactly what the quenching speed is, how long the oil will last etc, etc.
 
I believe that all those who think good enough is OK should go to a third world medical clinic.They can have a doctor (?) ,who may or may not have a degree;operate on them with non sterile and poor quality instruments;in a makeshift surgery;and defend it by saying," We have been doing it this way for a long time and most people survive."

When I want to jot down a note - any scrap of paper will do.
When I was single - any girl would do.
When I am tired - any place to lie down will do.
BUT!!!
When I want to make the best knife that my ability allows:
I get a known steel that is the best one suited to the job the knife will
perform.
I use the best tools I have available to make the knife with.
I do the Heat Treating with the best material and method for the job.
(or I send it to someone who can)
Stacy

PS: I consider my wife as coming under the same reasoning.(except for the sending to someone else part)
 
Here in the Twin Cities we have an industrial oil supplyer that has special oils in 5 gal pails. I use quenching oil, hyd oil, heat transfur oil, and all of it comes in 5 gal pails. As for cost I found the quenching oil wasn't much more expensive than ordinary motor oil. I think all large cities likely have an oil supplyer that supports the locial industrial people so check out the phone book.
 
John Frankl said:
That something is not 100% exact should motivate us to strive for maximum possible accuracy, not become an excuse for even less accuracy.

Why? I don't strive for maximum possible accuracy when making my tea in the morning. I eyeball the amount of tea and water, and the I eyeball the amount of milk and sugar. I don't strive to use the perfect amount of shampoo in my hair when I take a shower. I don't strive to get the maximum possible gas mileage out of my car when I drive to work.

That's not saying I don't try to be accurate. I do try to make a good cup of tea. I try to use something in between too much and too little shampoo. I try not to waste gas when driving. But I don't strive to reach a particular maximized point. It's a range that is acceptably accurate.

John Frankl said:
Sort of like saying people have been shooting guns for a long, long, long time so there is really no difference between a blunderbuss and an HK submachine gun. I guess this sort of accentuates my first statement about the absence of logic.

No, there is quite a lot more involved in a gun, and less room for error in various parts. Try the same analogy with a pencil. Or bread. Or an umbrella.

mete said:
Not an exact science ?? Industrially it certainly is ,we want to know exactly what the quenching speed is, how long the oil will last etc, etc.

Sure. But I don't see how that applies to the normal knifemaker, who is not in an industrial setting. If there were an exact formula for the perfect blade, every maker would use it. There isn't.

bladsmth said:
I believe that all those who think good enough is OK should go to a third world medical clinic.

I seem to be the only one in this thread who "thinks good enough is ok," but I also seem to be misunderstood. I'm not claiming something mediocre (like a third world doctor) is ok. All I'm saying is that there is no exact formula for a perfect knife.

bladsmth said:
They can have a doctor (?) ,who may or may not have a degree;operate on them with non sterile and poor quality instruments;in a makeshift surgery;and defend it by saying," We have been doing it this way for a long time and most people survive."

You think that the quality of medical care has improved drastically with the introduction of various technology and knowledge. You'll hear no argument from me.

Do you think the quality of blades has improved drastically with the introduction of "quenching oil"? Honestly?
 
John, you always have known that I think you are pretty sharp, but I have to warn you that you are playing with fire with this one, although I am firmly in your corner. I have found that you can tell a smith he is full of @##$ in just about any area but this one and still be friends. I have been able to get folks to listen to a whole lot of points just by pointing out facts and logic, but the one thing that has made more enemies for me in this business is to have the nerve to ask "why were quench oilsdeveloped" or that perhaps a product called "quench oil" just may be the one best suited for quenching:confused: .

I must admit that I really enjoy this forum these days because here is one of the few places one may be able to address this topic without getting flamed to a crisp. Here I have seen many folks who have actually at least tried actual quenching oils and were pleasantly surprised to find that they work really well for quenching.

The problem is that too many of the writings that folks go to for information includes recipes for all kinds of eclectic home made quenches, and trying to overcome this is tough, after all Mr. X wrote it and Mr. X is published so he must know what the is talking about.

If there is one part of this whole game that is an exact science, it is the heat treatment. There isn't a knifemaker alive that could argue that heat treating is the soul of the knife, so to me this is the one place where we should cut no corners, "good enough" should never be reachable in heat treating. I do not approach this from an industrial standpoint as mete has the advantage of, I approach this from a lifetime of bladesmithing. enough time to look much deeper than skating a file, cutting rope or bending blades.

I write this through blood shot eyes that were up late last night looking through that damned microscope again. And once again my whole world view got rearranged on heat treatment. I now have to reconsider my pre-heat treatments, soak times and tempering schedules (and this is on blades that are performing better than any previous ones). But I do not have to reconsider my quenchants. They have allowed me to get consistent results for many years, consistent enough to allow to do all of my more accurate analysis and testing.

This is the way I put it to those who immediatley assume I am knocking their blades when I ask "why were quenching oils debveloped"- you can successfuly pound a nail with a rock or a pipe wrench, but they do make hammers, and if you plan on driving nails for a living wouldn't a hammer be a wise investment.

I used to feel guilty that I may come off as anti-alternative quenchant, until I saw how violently anti-proper quenchant so many folks are. I have seen all of the arguments for not using this wonderful tool (too expensive, too hard to get, uncessesarry, too messy, too stinky etc...), I have checked them all out and found almost universally the opposite. I am having a lot of fun with my satirical articles on my web page, but the one that I had almost finished and then shelved it dealt with thic topic, I realized that I just wasn't prepared to be that unpopular yet.

One thing that we all need to remember when considering this, and we do tend to forget it often, we don't charge loyal customers $1000 a pop for making tea, pencils, bread, umbrellas etc...

I can't speak for knives in gerneral but I can most certainly say that the quality of my knives, and more improtantly my life, has greatly improved with the introduction of quench oil.
 
Kevin -- I hate to ask, but I also find much conflicting opinion about quenching oils out there, so...

What, in your opinion, is the best quenching oil for O1?
 
Before I come off as violently anti-proper quenchant, I should note that my only objection is to the claim that using a non-proper quenchant is akin to melting lard and pouring it into the tank of a new hydraulic press.

It's fine to strive to make the best possible knife. To demand that others define "best" the same way, to claim that others who do not have the same priorities are somehow doing something horrible (like using lard in a hydraulic press), is not only absurd, it's offensive.

If you make $1000 knives, yes, maybe you should be using the best quenchant you can get your hands on. It doesn't follow that makers of knives in the $100 - $200 range should as well.

If you plan on driving nails for a living, yes, you should probably get the best hammer you can find. But it doesn't follow that people who drive nails every so often for fun should be buying that same hammer.

Do you criticize makers who don't have the latest and greatest KMG grinder? Who don't have the best milling machine around? Who forge by hand, not by a power hammer?
 
Chant said:
Kevin -- I hate to ask, but I also find much conflicting opinion about quenching oils out there, so...

What, in your opinion, is the best quenching oil for O1?

This is where the quench speed really comes into play. The fastest oils are for dealing with the shallow hardeners, what are also water hardening. These are sometimes given a #50 label. For O1 you would want any of the medium speed oils that are general purpose. O1 is great for hardening real easy regardless, after all the "O" does stand for oil hardening;) . My favorite is Parks AAA for O1 but Parks products does indeed fall into that category of hard to get, but there are plenty of other oils readily available on the market.

I don't want to go out on a limb here, but the tests I did last night was soley on the effects of soak time, to I didn't ANY hardening issues, so I did quench O1 into Parks #50 :eek:. No cracking at all (which would have been a sure thing had the pieces been 1/2" or thicker), so one may get away with faster oils in the thin cross sections knifemakers work with, but distortion would probably be an issue.
 
Kevin, Thanks for the support/information/warning.

Brash, Yes, if you are making knives the way a guy pounds a nail into a wall to hang a picture once every couple of years, by all means keep using a rock. But even then, if you are charging the 1-200 dollars per blade that you suggest, an investment in a proper quenching oil seems not too much to ask.

For those of us who are STILL trying to make the best blade we can, my original question stands

As for my analogy comparing proper hydraulic fluid to lard--if this is "offensive" please ask yourself why? There are dedicated quenching oils just as their are dedicated hydraulic fluids, cutting oils, motor oils, ATFs, etc. Why is using bacon fat in place of a proper hydraulic fluid somehow more "offensive" and "absurd" than using bacon fat in place of a proper quenching oil? Personally, I see no difference.

John
 
I just had this strange thought run through my mind of a maker telling a customer, "I charge $50 more per knife because I use a secret mixture of nanny-goat urine, hempseed oil and scrapings from my baby's diaper to harden blades. Sure, it may not have a real good HT, but no one else is using that mix." :rolleyes:

Interesting discussion. Apologies for the digression. Carry on...... :)
 
John Frankl said:
As for my analogy comparing proper hydraulic fluid to lard--if this is "offensive" please ask yourself why? There are dedicated quenching oils just as their are dedicated hydraulic fluids, cutting oils, motor oils, ATFs, etc. Why is using bacon fat in place of a proper hydraulic fluid somehow more "offensive" and "absurd" than using bacon fat in place of a proper quenching oil? Personally, I see no difference.

It is offensive because you are claiming that there is one right way to quench (using quenching oils). So, of course, anyone who doesn't quench this way is doing something wrong. That would include, say, generations of Japanese swordsmiths.
 
brash said:
Before I come off as violently anti-proper quenchant, ...
Too late! You see Mr. Brash this is what I don’t understand, there have been much more pointed replies you your stance here, yet my attempt at diplomacy (I really am trying to be nice about it) with just simple logic is the one that has inspired the most venom, and I don’t understand it.

Just telling a person they are wrong is fine in America today, but showing them good facts to support your case is unforgivable.

I make no demands at all, and I have never tried to define the quality of anybody else’s knives (I don’t know why it always gets turned into that). Your knives may be exquisite, I don’t know, I have never seen one nor handled one, so I count myself entirely out of being qualified to judge them, is that clear enough? Now let us forget about knives and just look at the materials. I can show you the fine pearlite colonies that are so easy to get in even the best quenched steel. Steel riddled with the stuff will snap clean like it is fully martensitic, it will dull any files you skate on it, but it is there all the same. A steel that fully misses the pearlite nose of the curve will not have it, and that steel will stand up much better, sorry those are just facts. To tell me otherwise, I find absurd, but will forgo being offended.

Are blades that are full of fine pearlite “bad” or “wrong”? Hell no! Some of my favorites are probably sub-par in this area, and a vast numbers of knives being made are in the same category. So I guess it just may be possible to approach this without trashing other folks knives.

If you make $1000 knives, yes, maybe you should be using the best quenchant you can get your hands on. It doesn't follow that makers of knives in the $100 - $200 range should as well.

But for a measly $35-$40 the guy making the $100-$200 knives could have the same heat treat as the guy making $1000 knives, sounds like a cool investment to me.

I don’t recall criticizing anybody, there are thousands of ways to shape a piece of steel and often by hand is the most accurate. But there are a few ways to nail a heat treatment dead on and after seeing all the things that really can happen I believe we all need every edge we can get.

Why do I even give a rip about this topic? Because guys who have decided they want to make knives log onto these forums all the time, and they tend to take what they read by other knifemakers as being sound information, and when they read that lard is just as good as an over-priced, over-rated and impossible to obtain snobbish product called "quenching oil", they just may believe it and then they have been done a great disservice.

Sorry that is how I feel, hate it if you need to.
 
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