The Logic of Heat Treating Oils

[Kevin R. Cashen]

I just had this strange thought run through my mind of a maker telling a customer, "I charge $50 more per knife because I use a secret mixture of nanny-goat urine, hempseed oil and scrapings from my baby's diaper to harden blades. Sure, it may not have a real good HT, but no one else is using that mix."

Interesting discussion. Apologies for the digression. Carry on......

Fitzo, I will be trying to wrap my mind around that one all day now (all while trying to block it out as much as possible). It is kind of like changing a diaper, you got to deal with it but you don't really want to touch it

 

[Don Hanson III]

Quench oil - hard to get, expensive ???

A few months ago I decided I wanted some new quench oil. Three emials, a $140 check sent, one week wait and I had 10 gallons sitting on my shop floor.

What's the problem?

 

[brash]

Too late! You see Mr. Brash this is what I don’t understand, there have been much more pointed replies you your stance here, yet my attempt at diplomacy (I really am trying to be nice about it) with just simple logic is the one that has inspired the most venom, and I don’t understand it.

Whoops.
Actually, the only post I really objected to was the first one. I'm sorry if my reply to you sounded venomous.

In regard to logic, claiming that quenchant oils are the proper way to quench, and that not using them is like using lard instead of hydraulic fluid is not (good) logic. That is like saying, "If you don't do it the way some people claim is "right," you are an idiot." Hopefully we can agree that this is void of any good logic.

Just telling a person they are wrong is fine in America today, but showing them good facts to support your case is unforgivable.

The original post showed no good facts, and simply insulted makers who do not use quenchant oils.

Why do I even give a rip about this topic? Because guys who have decided they want to make knives log onto these forums all the time, and they tend to take what they read by other knifemakers as being sound information, and when they read that lard is just as good as an over-priced, over-rated and impossible to obtain snobbish product called "quenching oil", they just may believe it and then they have been done a great disservice.

Sorry that is how I feel, hate it if you need to.

Understandable. And I have no objections to your post(s). It's good to have all the facts before making a decision regarding anything. No hate from me.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Brash thank you for being so cool about it, I am admittedly defensive because of the reaction I have so often got to this topic (I am waiting for some folks to show up for the feeding frenzy now that the blood is in the water).

To all, there is so much to consider here. Another point that is often made, I am surprised it hasn’t been dragged out here yet, and appears on the surface to be logical, is that quench oils are all mostly mineral oil anyhow. To which I offer this- most the steels that are popular with bladesmiths are around 95% iron, so why wouldn’t just any steel work, or why not wrought iron for that matter? Now this is not a flippant an irrelevant comparison, it is a highly relevant and directly translatable comparison. It’s called chemistry and it only takes very small additions to a formula to drastically change things. Check out what 3%-9% addition of sodium chloride does to the quench characteristics of the other 91%-97% water.

After all of my studies and experience, if I could do anything to drastically improve the entire field of knifemaking, one of the top 3 would be to give every maker a 5 gallon bucket of good quench oil that matches his favorite steel.

I have no problem with anybody using anything they want. It is none of my business and I have seen some very cool knives made from scrap steel and quenched in a mud puddle. I do have a problem with folks telling others that there is no difference between old motor oil and Parks #50, that is just silly and we really shouldn’t have to debate something like that.

Before I take yet another pounding for daring to speak this blasphemy, let me make my stance perfectly clear in one short statement (very out of character for me ):

Just any oil or other liquid one finds probably would not be as well suited for quenching steel as a product that was engineered specifically for the purpose of quenching steel.

Please point out the flawed reasoning in the above statement. If you cannot, then you and I have no disagreement, despite how much malice you may want to project upon me.

 

[Raymond Richard]

I stopped by the Chevron oil distributor today. They can order me a 55 gal drum of Chevron Quenching Oil 70 for $8 per gal. It doesnt come in 5 gal pails unfortunatly.
Does anybody use just plain Mineral Oil? Doesnt Ed Caffrey use it? It is about $12 per gal. Tough quench is $20 plus frieght.

Bruce, I went and bought some mineral oil from the feed store last week. I also have Type A. Haven't used the mineral oil much yet but it does seem to be alittle thinner than the Type A but that may be cause the Type A had been in the cold garage. I wonder what the charge would be to get these two annalized? Before the fire I had both Type A and B with B being the faster. Know it was more of a parafine base and was alot quicker.

ls

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Quench oil - hard to get, expensive ???

A few months ago I decided I wanted some new quench oil. Three emials, a $140 check sent, one week wait and I had 10 gallons sitting on my shop floor.

What's the problem?

I have always been puzzled by this one as well, since I have gone to the trouble to compare the price of 5 gallons of ATF, 10w30, Canola oil, Olive oil, etc... to 5 gallons of what I think are the best quenchants on the market. Would you like to guess which is the cheaper?
I have two 5 gallon pails of Parks #50 in my floor now that I will sell to visitors to my shop for $37 a piece (don't worry fitzo, you always have one waiting as well, we just need to meet so you can get it, you coming to Janesville?), so there is even cheaper than your 10 gallons.

And as for availability, I checked once and it took 9 seconds to type in "quench oil" and get a list of over 200,000 search results. I have a telephone within walking distance, and UPS knows where my front porch is.
I am a bit more of a fanatic so I have also actually drove a couple hours to a place and picked up 55 gallons of the stuff (it is cheaper that way), but I must assume that if somebody is reading this, they have acces to a computer, a telephone, and thus UPS, and an automobile. I guess I think about things too much for my own good.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Bruce, I went and bought some mineral oil from the feed store last week. I also have Type A. Haven't used the mineral oil much yet but it does seem to be alittle thinner than the Type A but that may be cause the Type A had been in the cold garage. I wonder what the charge would be to get these two annalized? Before the fire I had both Type A and B with B being the faster. Know it was more of a parafine base and was alot quicker.

Do you have some literature that could point folks in the direction of the Chevron products? I have tried to do searches for distributers near me, and this is where I have to admitt I am not all that sharp. I have heard good things about the chevron, and would like to recommend sources to folks. There may be a source near Grand Rapids, MI since I believe Jim lucie uses it.
I used soem stuff called Ammoquench years ago (before I found Heat Bath/Park met.) and it was really good for oil hardening stuff but not so great with 1084/1095, but you could get it from almost any oil dealer near me.

I would be willing to say that some of the products being made by the companies who make mostly axle lubes and such could be really simple and not as efficient as others, but I have seen a huge difference in the stuff made by folks who focus is on heat treating supplies. There is, after all a range of quality in any product, and it is faulty for me to say one product is representative of all, I wouldn't want a person to try an American light beer and then decide that all beer is flavorless swill, when they have never had a heavy Munich lager, or a creamy stout.

 

[fitzo]

I have two 5 gallon pails of Parks #50 in my floor now that I will sell to visitors to my shop for $37 a piece (don't worry fitzo, you always have one waiting as well, we just need to meet so you can get it, you coming to Janesville?), so there is even cheaper than you 10 gallons.

Kevin, I am grateful that you extend this kind offer. I will definitely make the trip up to Janesville on Saturday, then. Thank you, sir! I really look forward to meeting you in person. :thumbup:

 

[mete]

I'm with you all the way Kevin !!!!!

 

[Raymond Richard]

Kevin, The Type A and B quenching oils I mentioned were Texaco products. The Type A is the one that Ed Fowler has had so much success with over the years. Believe it is no longer being made. The Type B I got here locally but that was 11 years ago and I'm not sure if its still obtainable. Bruce Bump is the one that mentioned the Cheveron oils.

One of the things I like about the Type B quench oil is it would harden a bigger varitity of steels that I use but it also caused alot of warpping that I didn't care for. Another thing it would produce was bolder temperlines and hamons than I haven't been able to get with the Type A. The type A is the slower quench. I feel real confident with the "A" that the blades will come out straight everytime I use it.

 

[John Frankl]

Brash, You wrote:

"It is offensive because you are claiming that there is one right way to quench (using quenching oils). So, of course, anyone who doesn't quench this way is doing something wrong. That would include, say, generations of Japanese swordsmiths."

I apologize if this is how my post was read. I absolutely do not discount water/brine quenching, polymers, low temp salts, etc. My post, re-written, would begin "If you are using OIL as your chosen quenching medium..."

I assumed others would assume this. Most, of course, did just that. In light of my chosen analogies, it seems commonsensical to me. Again, sorry for the confusion.

As for some Japanese swordsmiths, yes, in a way, they are like the blunderbuss. Some deliberately choose less than optimal materials and techniques because of the tradition they continue. I have no problem with this, just as I find many knives made from old car springs and quenched in Crisco very cool. But both the Japanese swordsmith nor the smith who favors recycled materials should be honest about the fact that their first concern is not with finding and using optimal materials and techniques (Yes, I know "optimal" is subjective and changes over time, but this still does not excuse never having searched for it). This goes back to a very early post about bio-diesel (often used vegetable oil) being used in cars/buses in place of diesel. I'm all for that--it helps the environment. But if you had a Mercedes-Benz diesel, and if you were going to race that same car for money, would you then go down to the local McDonalds and ask them to empty their deep-fryer, or would you spring for the best diesel you could find?

John Frankl

 

[brash]

But both the Japanese swordsmith nor the smith who favors recycled materials should be honest about the fact that their first concern is not with finding and using optimal materials and techniques

We are both in agreement, then. It sounded like you were claiming that everyone should strive to use optimal materials for bladesmithing, without taking into consideration other factors (cost, tradition, previous experience, etc.).

I have a gut reaction to argue whenever I hear someone say, "There is only one right way to do it, and this is how!" Which is what I had thought you said.

My apologies for misinterpreting your post!

 

[Tommegow]

"For O1 you would want any of the medium speed oils that are general purpose."
Mr Cashen I would like to know what a medium speed oil is? I can barely afford the O-1 steel I am starting to grind. What in your opinion is the best cheap oil for the absolute newb
(with very little money to invest at this point, but with several blades to HT?)I can not afford to send them off either
Respectfully
Tom

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

What a way to start the day!
This is for you, Mr.Cashen!
I've been tempted about a million times to relate this story, so I'm gonna do it now.
I call it the "Mike Lynch Syndrome".
Back in 1969, I was in Freshman Biology Class - do the math!
The teacher, Mr. Dudley, observed a student obviously looking at another student's paper during a semester test. Without mentioning ANY NAMES!, Mr. Dudley just said, "Stop that cheating!" Mike Lynch, in response hollered out, "I ain't cheatin'!"
Immediate admission of guilt.
That's what you get, Mr.Cashen, each and every time you say to use the right stuff. You get admission of guilt, the good ol' Mike Lynch way!
You never get any flack from the people who have taken a little incentive to get the right equipment to do the right job.
It's just that all the Mike Lynches in the room holler out, "I ain't cheatin!"
Another analogy? This is from my 7 years of experience making knives. Car designers can create all types of exotic gadgets to make their car stand out from the others, but there isn't one yet who has improved on the method in which they go down the road - wheels!
The heat treating process is the "wheels" that make our knives go down the road.
Quit trying to invent new ones and use the ones that work.
Thanks for all of your valuable info of the past and future, Kevin.
I want my customers to have knives that are dependable.
I don't cheat on this one.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

And, by the way, on my 5160 I generally use Tex Type A, but on my "secret" steel, I don't know where to get yak fat like some of these other guys, so I use rendered catfish lips and melted Bigfoot Toe Jam.

 

[Chant]

"For O1 you would want any of the medium speed oils that are general purpose."
Mr Cashen I would like to know what a medium speed oil is? I can barely afford the O-1 steel I am starting to grind. What in your opinion is the best cheap oil for the absolute newb
(with very little money to invest at this point, but with several blades to HT?)I can not afford to send them off either
Respectfully
Tom

Tom -- I am new too, and ended up using olive oil on my O1. Between my one-brick forge (which is cheap, but no where near optimal, and which I am still struggling to use correctly) and the sub-optimal quench, I have been disappointed with the results on my O1. It is discouraging to pay for good O1, invest the time (and it takes a lot of time for a newb) in grinding, end up with a nice blade, spend the time on a fit and finish for the handle, but end up with a sub-par knife. While I have a couple of nice looking knives under my belt now, knowing the heat treat is not great reduces the "pride factor" considerably, at least for me.

It is probably more a problem of reaching and soaking at critical temp in my forge than the olive oil, but I've decided to get proper quench oil, so at least that area will be optimal. Other than that, I'll have to try to get better with the forge until I can aford a heat-treat oven (note that a good forge and pyrometer are just as effective in skilled hands -- my one brick forge doesn't qualify as a good forge, and my hands don't qualify as skilled )

In short, try not to skimp on the quality of heat treat -- otherwise, the money spend on the O1 is sorta wasted. If you really can't afford proper quench oil, veggie oil will work. Correct me if I'm wrong, Kevin, but I'm sure my problem (and the biggest problem with other newbs) is getting to critical temp and holding, rather than the quench speed, and if you don't hit that right, the quality of quenching oil probably won't make much of a difference.

One other note -- be patient with your first few knives. If I had slowed down and re-done the heat treat until I was satisified, rather than rushing on to the handles and finish, I'd have better knives under my belt. As long as you don't drastically overheat the blade, you can heat, quench and temper as many times as you need to get it right. Only problem is, as a newb with no RC tester, how do you know when it's right .

 

[Chant]

And, by the way, on my 5160 I generally use Tex Type A, but on my "secret" steel, I don't know where to get yak fat like some of these other guys, so I use rendered catfish lips and melted Bigfoot Toe Jam.

On my secret-super-killer-tacticals-which-are-superior-to-everyone-elses, I quench by stabbing the red hot blade into the skull of a rabid grizzly bear. When cool, I wipe clean in the cleavage of a virgin.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

I used to do that all the time, now I can't find any virgins!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I agree with Kevin on this (and most everything else,too).
Brash made the comments about tradition and Japanese swordsmiths.With the exception of TV,Movies,and Novels - These people have produced very reliable and technical quenches which were the best suited to the blades they made.The stories about quenching in blood,urine,etc. are mostly a fiction.Until about 100 years ago the only choice was animal fat of water based quenchants.Water mixed with various salts produced the most reliably repeatable quenches,thus that was the standard quench.Along with the discovery and processing of petroleum products came a plethora of possible oils.They could be tweaked in the processing to do many very specific jobs.The HT process could be reliably performed over and over again with the same results attained every time.Other discoveries in recent years (Electron microscopy,X-ray analysis, Spectrography,etc,) have allowed metallurgists to do what the smiths of old never dreamed of - look into the steel at the crystals and atoms.This is all part the technological revolution.As we sit and type on our computers,answer our cell phones,set the thermostat at 70,and turn the ADT alarm to "STAY", we all are using this revolution.There are those who resist the world we live in,but most of those on this forum accept and some embrace it.I for one don't want to go back to writing letters with a quill pen by tallow candlelight in a cold wood home.Nor do I want to "guess" about my quench results.I have a chemical and tech background ,but all of the readers on BF don't.Thankfully we have mete and Kevin (and many others) who understand metallurgy and can impart their knowledge to us.I am grateful for their time and knowledge.I would suggest that those who want to do alternative methods of HT have all the fun they want.But,leave the science and education to those who know the subject.
Stacy

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Tom -- Correct me if I'm wrong, Kevin, but I'm sure my problem (and the biggest problem with other newbs) is getting to critical temp and holding, rather than the quench speed, and if you don't hit that right, the quality of quenching oil probably won't make much of a difference...

How about if I just commend you when you are right. With the curve that O1 has quenching fast enough is hardly ever the problem, but this can also increase the possibility of distortion or cracking (which is the better reason to use a good formulated oil here). Yes, i would agree that your problem is most likely in the heating and holding. My test 2 nights ago dealt with soak times and effect of O-1. I saw marked increase in HRC from a 2 mintue soak to a 12 minute soak, but was floored at how little the speroidal carbides were effected when it was put under the microscope. I will probably end up doubling all of my O1 soak times because of this. The more I look into this the more I really become convinced that unless one has a oven, there is not much advantage at all over 1084 in heat treating in the forge.