The manufacture cost equation- Sebenza and Alias

D

dulleddown

Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
155
Just finished posting about an Alias that I just bought. I couldn't really love this knife any more than I do. It's simple, light, strong, shaaaarp, smooth... it's got it all.

The only thing it doesn't have that a Sebbie has is that fancy, built-in (titanium) clip design, slightly larger washers, a pivot bushing instead of merely a pin, and a specially heat treated lock bar tip.

Sure, there's other things that set them apart, but these are the ones that would make a difference in cost to manufacture. I'd be surprised if these four items really make it cost twice as much to manufacture, but I could be wrong. It would not be the first time, that's for darn sure.

The small Sebenza (oh yes, beautiful knife, and definitely on my 'buy one' list) at $330 is twice the price of an Alias II, at $165. I'm sure now that I've actually typed this comparison out, that you're paying for the CRK name stamped on the scale. This is fine with me, as I do like 'Levi's' jeans, and will pay the price to buy them over something else, but I can't buy the argument that it's $330 because that's what it costs to make and sell. There's clearly a healthier profit being made on this knife than other similar models.

Someone may argue that there's more labour involved in assembling the Sebenza, throwing my entire point out the window.... I can deal with that, but these two knives are very close in make-up that let's just call this what it is. Again, I'm in the market for one once I'm bored with my Alias (likely not for a long time) but can we all just agree that it's priced as high as it is because it can be, and not because virgins hand assemble them on their thighs while singing virtuous hymns? ;)
 
We get this question constantly. I think we just went through this last week. Typically with the assumption that Sebenza owners are attracted by the idea of spending too much money.

I think we need to make One Gigantic Sebenza Thread, and add any new threads on The Same Question right onto it.

1) Yes, many people are willing to spend a few bucks more for the name.
2) No, everyone doesn't spend that much more for the name, buying theirs off the Exchange forums here for much less.
3) The Sebenza is made with a better design and more attention to detail, that is, handfitting, than its competitors.
4) The Sebenza is manufactured to much tighter tolerances than its competitors, and this translates to better performance.
5) Pricing is complex, but in every product field, price goes up faster than the small increments in quality at the high end.

Maybe I should close the thread here and make this a sticky.
 
You are correct EB... There's a very similar thread in the CRK forum.. Dulleddown, you might go into the manufacturers section and go to CRK.. You will find all kinds of answers and responses to your assumptions in previous threads. Also a lot of great info about anything pertaining to CRK.
 
I think we need to make One Gigantic Sebenza Thread, and add any new threads on The Same Question right onto it.
Click to expand...

It would overload the servers. The hardware can handle hundreds of little threads more easily than one gigantic thread. It would be easier for human brains to ignore just one thread, though....
 
whats funny is the sebenza is always what another knife gets compared to-

everyone wants a sebenza without paying-lol

heck ive even done it-
 
You can't really get an idea of what stands out as the main differences until you have handled more than one of each. I can tell you that if you were to lay out five small Sebenzas and five of anything else of the same model that you would be hard pressed to find another line as consistant across the board as the Sebenza model is and this is for every aspect of the folder from the action to the lock contact and the way the lock works, how far it engages, to the weight of the folder, and grind lines and profile of the blade. No matter where you look on the Sebenza its all very consistant from one to the next. You get what you pay for. Its not like apples to apples when you really get out the microscope.

This is not intended to take away from the Alias model or any others I've seen that are all quite good. I have one Alias, have had the chance to handle two others now with one in the safe yet to do some modifications to for a customer and its a nice enough folder. Its not a Sebenza though. The Sebbie is still the standard by which to judge even though I find a couple of areas that could use improvement on it also.

I'd like to see Chris move the primary grind up so the thumb stud no longer sits in line with the edge so much. Its actually in the way for some sharpeners like the Edge Pro. I'd like to see the addition of a choil built into the design also and some blade shape options other than one style. But hey, I guess we can't have it all.


STR
 
Well, I would think, that the cost difference is mainly to be found in QC, finish and numbers. The CRK knifes have an outstanding finish. Just compare the finish on the S30V blade. S30V is notoriously difficult to finish well and most manufacturers stick for that reason with a fairly coarse finish. Not so on the Sebenza. I would venture to guess that the finish of the blade alone adds a factor 1.5 to the grinding time of the blade. There are also very few complaints about bad Sebenzas. The QC is probably the best in the business. I would venture to guess that every single one is hand checked. That takes a lot of time and more importantly limits the output quantity, which in turn with the high price limits the number of pieces manufactured which again increases the price. There is a steep drop in price when you plan on manufacturing of the bat 1000 pieces instead of 100. I doubt that the profits are that much higher on the Sebenza. May be calculated for a single piece but not for the entire run.

And mind you, I am not a fan of the Sebensa nor do I own one (but I got to play with one for some time). But my qualms with the Sebenza are not based on the bang-for-the-buck factor but simply that I find the design mostly unappealing.
 
You could sticky and lock a sebenza thread at the top. Has any of the arguments pro/con ever changed?

Then any new thread could be referred to the sticky thread and locked. That'll fix'em. :)
 
High prices are often arrived at by the simple expedient of keeping merchandise out of the mainstream, and only the hands of those who can afford it - which alone will justify the idea that it must be high quality if "they" buy them.

In the case of the Sebenza, it seems to be justified. For other products, it keeps them from being compared to actual competitors by forcing the discussion to conclude "it's apples and oranges!" because the customers are from two different socio-economic groups, and may use them differently.

I've picked on the Sebenza as being only used to make lunch and cut soft wire, because of the reports that include those valueless descriptions of use. It doesn't really make the knife less robust, or another knife more so. It does point out that comparison to lesser priced knives will always suffer because nobody wants to put out a level playing field. As suggested in another post, there are very few reports of actual cutting tests, lock bar tests, etc. What would be demanded for cars or cameras as a road test is completely avoided in knives and guns, unless the Ordnance procurers are involved. And we don't get those results often.

Which boils down to this: knives are fashion jewelry for men. They express the owners sense of style, purpose, and use, whether as a profession or wannabe. And as long as we keep buying them because they are "cool," we'll keep some in business who otherwise just build so-so knives for the price.
 
People suggest sticky threads by the hundred, and they're all (mostly all) good ideas, but who wants to page past a couple of hundred sticky threads every day to get to the new posts?

Besides, my guess is the people who ignore the search function are just as good at ignoring sticky threads....
 
Congratulations, dulleddown! You're the 1000th member of these forums to settle for something less than the Sebenza then post your rationalizations. Please, people, save bandwidth and just purchase one to begin with!!! It isn't all that difficult to just keep saving for a while longer. This will also cut down the time until you get to post the "now I get it" thread in the Reeve forum so everyone can give you attaboys.
 
I think the reason why these Sebenza threads are so common is the reason that nearly everyone holds true: 'it's a benchmark knife', and on a forum about knives, well, it's gonna get talked about a lot. If there was a forum-wide consensus that there should only ever be one new thread per topic, then I'm sure someone would have instituted it by now.

I reckon you're right STR, If I'd handled one, I'd perhaps understand more clearly. And as it's on my list of stuff to buy, if a dealer near me ever stocked them I'm sure I would have bought one by now. I don't mind getting seduced into paying for just a brand name once in a while but it's harder to do it via mail order than at an actual storefront where you can touch the stuff first.

HoB, your point about the time required to finish the blade... that settles it for me. Again, having not held one, I don't know these things.
 
I think you are still missing the point if you consider yourself being seduced into paying for a brand name... You say the Sebbie is on your want to buy list. Why is that if you feel its overpriced and just a NAME ? I think you already know you are paying for a level of quality thats not available in a mass produced knife. Time is money. In all honesty the Sebbie is not for everyone. Some people will not notice the subtle differences and extra time spent producing these knives. For those that do, they appreciate it and are willing to pay for it.
 
Okay everyone, here's what it all boils down to:

"Sebenzas aren't worth it!"

"Yes they are!"

"No they aren't"

"Yes they are!"

"No they aren't"

"Yes they are."

Repeat 500 times and then start a new thread on the same subject about once a month.

If you want to know whether a Sebenza is worth it, go for the no risk trial: buy a used one (a nice one just went for $250 on the for sale forum). Carry and use it for a few months. Take it apart, clean it, lube it, and put it back together again. Carefully compare it to all of your less expensive knives.

Then decide FOR YOURSELF whether it's worth it. If you decide it's not, sell it. You'll get every penny back. If you decide it was worth it, you'll know what to do. And if you further decide it would be worth the extra money to get a shinynew one, go for it. Or, have the used one reconditioned to look like new for a nominal fee.

There. Simple.
 
338375 said:
I think you are still missing the point if you consider yourself being seduced into paying for a brand name... You say the Sebbie is on your want to buy list. Why is that if you feel its overpriced and just a NAME ? I think you already know you are paying for a level of quality thats not available in a mass produced knife. Time is money. In all honesty the Sebbie is not for everyone. Some people will not notice the subtle differences and extra time spent producing these knives. For those that do, they appreciate it and are willing to pay for it.
Click to expand...

I see what you mean, but I'm not saying I would feel like I'm being seduced into paying for only the name. I know it's a great knife, or let's say, I believe the many who say it's a great knife, which is why I'll likely get one. I don't feel any more or less shallow than a lot of others in that I don't mind paying an additional premium for branding. I know that buying certain branded clothes gets me a better product (fit, longevity, style) than not buying them, and that it comes at a higher price, which in part means the manufacturer gets more profit. I know that buying a Sebenza would get me a great knife, and likely mean more profit for the manufacturer. I could be wrong, but I've always assumed that the higher priced a product, the more profit for everyone along the line. A Ferrari nets more profit than a Kia, and a house nets more profit than a garden shed.

I have no problem with the price of Sebenza's; I guess I just don't care much for the smugness of some owners who think or claim that CRK put all that extra money into producing and inspecting the product, and not an extra dime in his pocket over and above what Joe's Backyard Knife Company makes. Does that kinda make sense? I'm certainly not trying to be inflammatory and hope it doesn't read that way.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
1) Yes, many people are willing to spend a few bucks more for the name.
2) No, everyone doesn't spend that much more for the name, buying theirs off the Exchange forums here for much less.
3) The Sebenza is made with a better design and more attention to detail, that is, handfitting, than its competitors.
4) The Sebenza is manufactured to much tighter tolerances than its competitors, and this translates to better performance.
5) Pricing is complex, but in every product field, price goes up faster than the small increments in quality at the high end.
Click to expand...
The Sebenza will always be a rich area for debate, and it will likely never be settled. Everything you said above is true. No one can deny the quality of the Sebenzas, or the fact that some people will always be willing to buy them. But others will always be skeptical about the excessive quality that's built into them.Can quality be excessive? And is the Sebenza's quality worth the $350+ price tag? That question is unlikely to be resolved in just one thread and I think it will be a good way of killing an ongoing and lively debate. Every person wanting to raise new questions will invariably be referred to an impossibly long and ancient "sticky" thread, and that would be a mistake.
 
these threads are usually started by people who do not own the sebenza (but not always) So I suggest you buy one, then post a thread about it compared to another knife...Your thoughts and opinions might change once you ahve one in your hand and get to use it...
 
I suppose anything's perceived value is determined by whatever someone paid for it. My$165 knife is worth about $220 to me because that's that's what I paid for it (once tax, shipping and duty had been added). Right now, I assumed a $330 Sebenza of nearly the same materials/design must have a larger profit buffer built in, though I'd still 'value' it at $330 as that's what I'd be willing to pay for one.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top