silenthunterstudios
Slipjoint Addict
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2005
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- 20,039
You don't know until you've tried one.
Two large classics and counting for me
Two large classics and counting for me
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
The manufacture cost equation- Sebenza and Alias
- Thread starter dulleddown
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 19,374
None of us can say how much profit margin there is in a Sebbie.. There are way to many factors to even guess. Plus in my opinion it is none of our business how much or how little money CR makes... The fact is that he makes a high quality product and charges what he charges. If his knives were rediculously overpriced, there would not be as many people buying them.
To me it doesn't matter if it only costs him 100.00 to make a Sebbie, the price is what it is.. I do not own one yet, but I was actually able to look at one in person a couple weeks ago. I think to really appreciate it you need to spend some time seriously looking at them. A quick glace won't really let you appreciate the time that goes into these knives. Just looking at them quickly it is going to look like a very simple 300.00 + knife JMO
To me it doesn't matter if it only costs him 100.00 to make a Sebbie, the price is what it is.. I do not own one yet, but I was actually able to look at one in person a couple weeks ago. I think to really appreciate it you need to spend some time seriously looking at them. A quick glace won't really let you appreciate the time that goes into these knives. Just looking at them quickly it is going to look like a very simple 300.00 + knife JMO
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,685
Hi Dulleddown,
More profit is usually associated with higher price. That's normal. Profit is usually a percentage of sales price. To think that a high priced auto should garner the same proft as a low priced auto is not in accord with business. It might be the same percentage, but being more expensive, it will be more profit.
Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?
In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.
Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for.
sal
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Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.
More profit is usually associated with higher price. That's normal. Profit is usually a percentage of sales price. To think that a high priced auto should garner the same proft as a low priced auto is not in accord with business. It might be the same percentage, but being more expensive, it will be more profit.
Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?
In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.
Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for.
sal
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Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2005
- Messages
- 3,531
Wow, quite a weighty post, Sal. I hope it gets the proper notice. I'm a big Sebenza defender already, and even I feel like I learn something about how nice they really are.
Thank you Mr. Glesser. Your posts always provide insight and information we end users sorely lack.
These threads are always interesting. One thing I find irratating however are the people who "put down" a knife or find faults with its design/size/materials/price/what-ever based on holding it for a few minutes at a knife show or reading about it on the 'net. You can't "know" about a knife until you've owned and used it for an extended period of time.
To the OP and all, buy what works for you, what you like, and what you can afford.
That's why there are Spydercos, CRK's, SAK's, Striders, Carsons and lots of others in my collection. I treasure them all for different reasons. I use them all for different missions.
Cheers,
dan
These threads are always interesting. One thing I find irratating however are the people who "put down" a knife or find faults with its design/size/materials/price/what-ever based on holding it for a few minutes at a knife show or reading about it on the 'net. You can't "know" about a knife until you've owned and used it for an extended period of time.
To the OP and all, buy what works for you, what you like, and what you can afford.
That's why there are Spydercos, CRK's, SAK's, Striders, Carsons and lots of others in my collection. I treasure them all for different reasons. I use them all for different missions.
Cheers,
dan
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2007
- Messages
- 155
Yeah, you're quite right. I don't have a micrometer or whatever I'd need to detect that kind of precision, though I can sure appreciate that it would feel good when opening and closing a blade. I don't know that I could blindfolded tell such a difference between a Spyderco and a Sebenza either though, as far as 'smooth action' goes. I could be wrong. As an aside, I would guess that any custom built knife has far less tolerances built in as I can't imagine a human could grind steel as accurately as a cnc device.
Start to finish though, I agree with you Sal. I never took a contrary stance to begin with. As the kids say nowadays, "respect" [fist bump].
Here's a general question to anyone; with regards to fitting knife parts together... are CNC machiners pretty close across the board? I'm sure you can pay more for one than another, and my understanding is they're in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, but I mean can a benchmade CNC shop measure to 0.005" the same way another higher end knife shops CNC aparatus can? And for opening and closing a folder, do we really benefit from that close of a tolerance? I know it's important to not have any blade wobble when locked open, but wouldn't less precision still afford that level of lock security?
My guess in any difference would be that both a Frost CNC device and say a CRK CND device have the same ability, but getting that higher precision requires more expensive bits or tools, and likely more passes over the part being manufactured (and therefore more time).
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- Joined
- Oct 14, 1998
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- 2,157
Start imagining. Extremely tight tolerances are done by hand.
Do all cars go the same speed? It depends on the machine and machinist. A bad machinist can make an excellent machine look bad and a great machinist can make a mediocre machine produce fantastic results.
I had the privilege of talking to Owen Wood at the ABS Hammer-In at Sierra Forge. He told me he finishes his folder pivots to +- 5 microns. One micron is 25th of a thousandth of an inch or one-millionth of a meter. The pivots we have are only +-.0002 inches. Owen is a remarkable craftsman!
Todd Begg hand laps his folder washers to +-.0001. He told me the difference between .001 and .0001 is night and day. Todd is another talented and gifted knifemaker.
RJ Martin made a great post concerning CNC machining. I think every knife collector should read his comments:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504221
Tight tolerances cost money. How much are you willing to spend?
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2007
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- 155
Thanks Chuck. That was a good read. I wish the pictures in that thread were still accessible. I went to RJ Martin's site though and had a look at his work. Very cool. I personally prefer shorter blades right now, but man those are some nice looking profiles. His shortest (Q 36) is till nearly an inch too long for my needs, and I haven't ever purchased a custom folder before. I'd likely start with a William Henry at this point, from what I've seen so far.
Anyhow, I digress. Thanks for the thread link... interesting. But on the other hand, damn you, as it's now spurred a whole new interest in knifemaking and CNC that I've got to read about. Something else in my life is not going to get done while I switch to this for a while.
Have a good one.
How much am I willing to spend? That question hasn't been answered yet. I'd be comfortable (read: "could likely justify to my wife") spending about $1000 on a knife that really spoke to me, but for now the most I've spent is just over $200.
oldrifleman
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2006
- Messages
- 2,093
Yes most quality CNC equipment is pretty close in what level of tolerance they could maintain. The question then is what level does the company running the equipment want to pay to sustain. To hold the tight tolerances you have to have better fixtures to hold the part, which slows down production. To hold tight tolerances, you have to change cutters sooner than if you can live with lower tolerance levels. Tight levels of tolerances cost money, a Frost level company may have the equipment to produce a tight knife, and may every once in a while in a given run, but they choose to spend less on the machining to maximize costs. Steven
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2007
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- 155
ha. That's interesting when you put it that way, oldrifleman. To think that you could buy a lower end knife that was as rock-solid, tolerance-wise, as a higher end product just on the fluke that it's the one time in a lifetime that say the four cnc machines involved in that knife's production all had their bits changed on the same day, and were all cutting/working at the top of their game. Funny.
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I agree with sal.
My father's business runs in the same principle. Having worked for him, he was extremely nitpicking about details, id say things like 'who would notice a tiny dried glob of paint on a 200 sq ft wall?' He'd give me this mean look and as an adult I understand why he charges high prices anf d never advertise, if you provide over the top quality, the customer will advertise for you.
Crk works in this way.
the actual knife, materials, and customer service is what makes the customer fall in love and proceed to tell everyone about it.
My father's business runs in the same principle. Having worked for him, he was extremely nitpicking about details, id say things like 'who would notice a tiny dried glob of paint on a 200 sq ft wall?' He'd give me this mean look and as an adult I understand why he charges high prices anf d never advertise, if you provide over the top quality, the customer will advertise for you.
Crk works in this way.
the actual knife, materials, and customer service is what makes the customer fall in love and proceed to tell everyone about it.