Hey, guys, I just tried to order a matriarch from SFO, and I was very politely informed that the matriarch is only sold to LEOs now. What gives? I thought that forumites would be able to buy them. Did I miss a thread when I was searching through the archives or something? I remember finding a thread where Sal mentioned the slow sales of the matriarch and said something to the effect of offering it to LEO as well as to forum members. When did it change to LEO only?
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The Matriarch: Gone for good?
- Thread starter Flinx
- Start date
Hi again!
There was a run of Matriarchs with the grey handles. There was a set period of time where members of bladeforums.com were allowed to order them. Sal stated right up front that it was for a very limited time. He really doesn't want them to be a regular item for US customers. My understanding is that it is still exported with a black handle. There are a couple people here that will take US orders and ship you a black one.
Gregg
There was a run of Matriarchs with the grey handles. There was a set period of time where members of bladeforums.com were allowed to order them. Sal stated right up front that it was for a very limited time. He really doesn't want them to be a regular item for US customers. My understanding is that it is still exported with a black handle. There are a couple people here that will take US orders and ship you a black one.
Gregg
Being a Police officer and a Knife dealer I am wondering if I might be able to get one for my self and some of my collegues who I have shown the pictures too. Would I be able to call Spyderco and see if any distributors are carring them ? Hey it is worth a try . I would only sell them to other cops. That is if that is one of Spyderco's stipulation.
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All it takes for the forces of evil to rule the world is for good men to do nothing...Edmund Burke
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All it takes for the forces of evil to rule the world is for good men to do nothing...Edmund Burke
I have been biting my tongue on this for some time, and I am probably goiong to get flamed for this, but here goes.
Why is it that the Matriarch is not available, yet the abomination Gunting is going to be regular production?
IIRC, the Matriarch has an image that Spyderco does not want to promote, that of a vicious fighting knife. How is it that the Gunting does not promote that same image? Offering varying levels of force, pressure points, joint locks, and finally cutting. Is that not fighting?
Why is it that the Matriarch is not available, yet the abomination Gunting is going to be regular production?
IIRC, the Matriarch has an image that Spyderco does not want to promote, that of a vicious fighting knife. How is it that the Gunting does not promote that same image? Offering varying levels of force, pressure points, joint locks, and finally cutting. Is that not fighting?
hey phillip, being that you're question is legit, i doubt any forumite is going to flame you for this, as they are pretty much nice fellas. I just think that to the average person, the hawkbill blade can look downright scary , whereas the gunting just looks sort of funny to the untrained eye. Maybe it's all about political correctness????
help me out here fellas...
P.S. hendrix rules!!!!
[This message has been edited by charels (edited 06-08-2000).]
help me out here fellas...
P.S. hendrix rules!!!!
[This message has been edited by charels (edited 06-08-2000).]
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I have a question for Sal.
I have Matriarchs in stock and, as I agreed when I bought them, I only sell to LEO or Military. Now I see this website (Tool-Shop)advertizing them for sale to anybody.
What gives? Why is another dealer allowed to sell indiscriminately, without the same restrictions, simply because they are offshore?
I have a pretty good supply of these things that I paid good money for and sales are slow, due to the restricted market. Yet these folks can ship them all over the world with no problems. Seems a bit duplicitous to me.
If you don't think the average ugly American is worthy of owning one of these things, so be it, but you didn't really believe that these guys wouldn't be able to find them simply the dealer is in another country did you?
We're not dealing with a bunch of intellectually challenged folks here. While some of us may be educated a bit beyond our intelligence, I'd venture to say that there's not a dummy in the bunch. You not only underrate them, you under-estimate their capabilities.
Now, I'm not going to change my policy and start selling to everybody, after all, a deal is a deal, (At least it is on my end), but why are U.S. dealers put at such a disadvantage? I am confused. Why the double standard?
Phillip makes a very good point, especially when the Civilian is unrestricted.
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Dennis Wright
("Have a knife day!")
(NSBFC)
I have Matriarchs in stock and, as I agreed when I bought them, I only sell to LEO or Military. Now I see this website (Tool-Shop)advertizing them for sale to anybody.
What gives? Why is another dealer allowed to sell indiscriminately, without the same restrictions, simply because they are offshore?
I have a pretty good supply of these things that I paid good money for and sales are slow, due to the restricted market. Yet these folks can ship them all over the world with no problems. Seems a bit duplicitous to me.
If you don't think the average ugly American is worthy of owning one of these things, so be it, but you didn't really believe that these guys wouldn't be able to find them simply the dealer is in another country did you?
We're not dealing with a bunch of intellectually challenged folks here. While some of us may be educated a bit beyond our intelligence, I'd venture to say that there's not a dummy in the bunch. You not only underrate them, you under-estimate their capabilities.
Now, I'm not going to change my policy and start selling to everybody, after all, a deal is a deal, (At least it is on my end), but why are U.S. dealers put at such a disadvantage? I am confused. Why the double standard?
Phillip makes a very good point, especially when the Civilian is unrestricted.
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Dennis Wright
("Have a knife day!")
(NSBFC)
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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Sorry Dennis. HAven't heard of the tool shop and no, they're not supposed to.
Guess we'll have change directions.
Phillip - The difference is the price. The reason is that we're trying to be responsible Knife manufacturers.
sal
Guess we'll have change directions.
Phillip - The difference is the price. The reason is that we're trying to be responsible Knife manufacturers.
sal
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I read something before about the matriarch and south african police or something?
About Sal carrying one and giving a matriarch away?
Oh, by the way, Toolshop is a european orginasation, I guess they can carry the matriarch. It was not allowed is the US.
Bad luck for you people.
About Sal carrying one and giving a matriarch away?
Oh, by the way, Toolshop is a european orginasation, I guess they can carry the matriarch. It was not allowed is the US.
Bad luck for you people.
- Joined
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- 8,917
I understand that Spyderco has an image to uphold...I really do.
But in so much that any knife made can be used for evil and there are several other models that look nasty, even the smaller version, the Harpy/Merlin, I just don't see the problem myself, and I am not alone. A Merlin will cause a lot of damage and does not exactly look "nice." I don't know anymore about what goes on with regards to political correctness and other matters, just seems like a minor form of insanity to me. Sort of like the cosmetic "ugly gun" legislation that later became known as assault weapon legislation. It did not matter if the function was the same and effect was the same, just the looks.
But in so much that any knife made can be used for evil and there are several other models that look nasty, even the smaller version, the Harpy/Merlin, I just don't see the problem myself, and I am not alone. A Merlin will cause a lot of damage and does not exactly look "nice." I don't know anymore about what goes on with regards to political correctness and other matters, just seems like a minor form of insanity to me. Sort of like the cosmetic "ugly gun" legislation that later became known as assault weapon legislation. It did not matter if the function was the same and effect was the same, just the looks.
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David. You did nothing wrong. I don't have a problem with you or anyone else posting links to sources when forumites are searching for something.
The point of my post was supposed to be aimed at the attempts to place restrictions on what is, essentially, an unrestricted and unrestrictable, venue.
If everyone operated from the same standards and set of values, then it wouldn't be a problem but with the huge amount of diversity out here it impossible to establish such limits and unreasonable to expect total compliance.
It is not a matter of honesty or integrity but, rather, a reflection of the tremendous effort required to ensure that every entity understands what is expected of them.
Sal has every right, as the developer of the Matriarch, to establish the conditions, under which it may be sold or distributed. With that right comes the responsibility to at least attempt to enforce those conditions fairly across the board. He can't do that unless he knows about the anomalies.
The other dealer may not know of the restriction or may not care. Either way, now that the, situation has been exposed, it can be addressed and Sal can take whatever action he deems necessary. Your posting the link facilitated that.
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Dennis Wright
("Have a knife day!")
(NSBFC)
The point of my post was supposed to be aimed at the attempts to place restrictions on what is, essentially, an unrestricted and unrestrictable, venue.
If everyone operated from the same standards and set of values, then it wouldn't be a problem but with the huge amount of diversity out here it impossible to establish such limits and unreasonable to expect total compliance.
It is not a matter of honesty or integrity but, rather, a reflection of the tremendous effort required to ensure that every entity understands what is expected of them.
Sal has every right, as the developer of the Matriarch, to establish the conditions, under which it may be sold or distributed. With that right comes the responsibility to at least attempt to enforce those conditions fairly across the board. He can't do that unless he knows about the anomalies.
The other dealer may not know of the restriction or may not care. Either way, now that the, situation has been exposed, it can be addressed and Sal can take whatever action he deems necessary. Your posting the link facilitated that.
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Dennis Wright
("Have a knife day!")
(NSBFC)
- Joined
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If anyone has them at a reasonable cost, e-mail me and we will talk about it. The more I think about it, the more ludicrous the situation becomes.
This is like the old gun control arguments. Only certain folks (like LEOs) can be trusted with certain things. The assumption is that the people you are selling the product to are going to do evil with it. If we conduct ourselves in that way of thinking, ascribing evil intent to everything or everyone, or bow in the face of political correctness...this whole industry will perish.
The reason I wanted to try these is because my Wife loves the Merlin, and if a Matriarch will give her even 10% more cutting power and because of the slightly larger grip, will give her even 10% more controllability, I want to try it out, because I love her, she is important to me and the World because she is a good person, and she is important to her Son and it is important that she come home every night to her Son and Husband, these are the things that count, not a Restriction to Law Enforcement or Military Personnel who have a myriad of defensive and offensive devices at their disposal, like they even need another one.
In other words, my Wife and all other good people like her, are more important than political correctness.
[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 06-09-2000).]
This is like the old gun control arguments. Only certain folks (like LEOs) can be trusted with certain things. The assumption is that the people you are selling the product to are going to do evil with it. If we conduct ourselves in that way of thinking, ascribing evil intent to everything or everyone, or bow in the face of political correctness...this whole industry will perish.
The reason I wanted to try these is because my Wife loves the Merlin, and if a Matriarch will give her even 10% more cutting power and because of the slightly larger grip, will give her even 10% more controllability, I want to try it out, because I love her, she is important to me and the World because she is a good person, and she is important to her Son and it is important that she come home every night to her Son and Husband, these are the things that count, not a Restriction to Law Enforcement or Military Personnel who have a myriad of defensive and offensive devices at their disposal, like they even need another one.
In other words, my Wife and all other good people like her, are more important than political correctness.
[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 06-09-2000).]
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Don,
My view differs from your view on this issue. I respect your position (and I don't want this to be interpreted as a flame) but I prefer to think of it as a decision based upon "risk management" rather than "political correctness". Spyderco is a great outfit with high quality innovative products, superior customer service, and management of the highest integrity. I wouldn't want to see all that jepordized because they produce a product that some might (unfairly) portray as a Saturday Night Special Slasher. I don't like it that Matriarchs are not more widely available but I think Spyderco's caution is prudent. So it goes. -Alan
My view differs from your view on this issue. I respect your position (and I don't want this to be interpreted as a flame) but I prefer to think of it as a decision based upon "risk management" rather than "political correctness". Spyderco is a great outfit with high quality innovative products, superior customer service, and management of the highest integrity. I wouldn't want to see all that jepordized because they produce a product that some might (unfairly) portray as a Saturday Night Special Slasher. I don't like it that Matriarchs are not more widely available but I think Spyderco's caution is prudent. So it goes. -Alan
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Alan,
Spyderco most certainly can do what they feel is most protective of their image, I was merely voicing my opinion. You are not flaming, and I am trying not to.
With that having been said, would you lay a Civilian next to a Matriarch and tell me the difference, "image-wise?"
If it is a matter of exclusivity, then so be it, say it. But covering it in terms of "image" is a bit of a stretch to me.
To put it bluntly, Spyderco should be proud that I think highly enough of their knives that my Wife carries them, know what I mean? Just as my Wife should be thankful that Spyderco produces a knife that is "street-viable." The rubbed raw part is that somehow this is not ethical, or it is irresponsible to offer something to a 5'4" 125 pound woman with which she can cut someone off of her. Nothing illegal, immoral, irresponsible or unethical about that at all, what do you think?
The purpose of the discussion is not to get anyone to change their mind at Spyderco, the purpose is just to discuss the problem of perception.
If we can discuss things in a cool, logical fashion, that is great.
It never really began to smell until the LEO angle came in. If it was exclusive to another country, oh well, if I could not get it from another country, oh well. It was my understanding that it was exclusive to one person in another country. Now we have the continued LEO angle and whatnot and it is troubling.
I'm not Anti-Cop or anything like that either.
In the original brochure that was supplied with Civilians, and I will not reprint it here as it says not to...but it more or less stated the Civilian was for LEO's and would be produced in limited quantities accordingly. That may have been true then...
You can buy them almost anywhere. Oh well.
Spyderco most certainly can do what they feel is most protective of their image, I was merely voicing my opinion. You are not flaming, and I am trying not to.
With that having been said, would you lay a Civilian next to a Matriarch and tell me the difference, "image-wise?"
If it is a matter of exclusivity, then so be it, say it. But covering it in terms of "image" is a bit of a stretch to me.
To put it bluntly, Spyderco should be proud that I think highly enough of their knives that my Wife carries them, know what I mean? Just as my Wife should be thankful that Spyderco produces a knife that is "street-viable." The rubbed raw part is that somehow this is not ethical, or it is irresponsible to offer something to a 5'4" 125 pound woman with which she can cut someone off of her. Nothing illegal, immoral, irresponsible or unethical about that at all, what do you think?
The purpose of the discussion is not to get anyone to change their mind at Spyderco, the purpose is just to discuss the problem of perception.
If we can discuss things in a cool, logical fashion, that is great.
It never really began to smell until the LEO angle came in. If it was exclusive to another country, oh well, if I could not get it from another country, oh well. It was my understanding that it was exclusive to one person in another country. Now we have the continued LEO angle and whatnot and it is troubling.
I'm not Anti-Cop or anything like that either.
In the original brochure that was supplied with Civilians, and I will not reprint it here as it says not to...but it more or less stated the Civilian was for LEO's and would be produced in limited quantities accordingly. That may have been true then...
You can buy them almost anywhere. Oh well.
- Joined
- Apr 16, 1999
- Messages
- 212
Hi Don,
I agree with what you have said. I think that what Sal was suggesting is that the Matriarch and Civilian are functionally similar but different mainly in PRICE. Whether true or not to punks, price is commonly thought to be closely correlated with accessibility. While I doubt a few hundred dollars is a barrier to many drug dealers for buying a gun or knife, it may well be to some wannabe tough adolescents. I don't know.
How about a Civilian for your wife? They really are much nicer than a Matriarch. I don't know what sort of scales are currently available but my Harpy has G10 and that makes for a secure grip wet or dry.
Not being a cop, I'm not sure how they feel about these things but I'd guess that they are probably split on this just as the rest of the population is. My guess is that while cops have a dangerous job and are at risk for us whenever on duty, they are also among the most aware and best trained for handling folks with sharp objects. Sorry for straying so far off topic. I never gave much thought to this subject until today. Cheers! -Alan
I agree with what you have said. I think that what Sal was suggesting is that the Matriarch and Civilian are functionally similar but different mainly in PRICE. Whether true or not to punks, price is commonly thought to be closely correlated with accessibility. While I doubt a few hundred dollars is a barrier to many drug dealers for buying a gun or knife, it may well be to some wannabe tough adolescents. I don't know.
How about a Civilian for your wife? They really are much nicer than a Matriarch. I don't know what sort of scales are currently available but my Harpy has G10 and that makes for a secure grip wet or dry.
Not being a cop, I'm not sure how they feel about these things but I'd guess that they are probably split on this just as the rest of the population is. My guess is that while cops have a dangerous job and are at risk for us whenever on duty, they are also among the most aware and best trained for handling folks with sharp objects. Sorry for straying so far off topic. I never gave much thought to this subject until today. Cheers! -Alan