The Matriarch: Gone for good?

For those of you looking you might want to check out that large internet auction site. Look under spyderco, I saw one earlier, ends on June 11. BTW, it is not mine, I just thought this would be helpful for those looking.
Eric


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Outside of a dog, a Knife is man's best friend. Inside a dog it is very, very Dark.
 
Hey, guys, I didn't mean to start such a controversial thread. I just wanted some clarification. When I was searching thru the archives about the Matriarch, I came across a thread wherein Sal said something to the effect that since sales of the Matriarch was slow, he was going to open it up to LEO's. I hope I didn't mis-quote or something, but I took that to mean that it was going to be for sale to both bladeforum members AND LEO's. Maybe I read it wrong, but I just wanted to find out for certain. Sorry if I stirred up a hornet's nest.
 
Don't misunderstand please...

I was discussing with another close friend what we would like to see from various makers, Custom and Production. This was a about 1 week before I went to Atlanta. The person was Mitchell Lake, another Forum Member.

I was lamenting that I would like to see a hook blade larger than the Harpy/Merlin and smaller than a Civilian.

Then I went to Atlanta and looked in the Spyderco case, spoke with Sal Glesser and found out that the Matriarch was a limited edition knife for another country, etc...

Then I came back and found this "mini-controversy" and found some more of the "reasoning" behind the Matriarch.

Now, again, Hawksbill blades have been around for a long time. The Civilian is not really a Hawksbill, it is in another class really, it has some belly to it as well. Even a large Hawksbill is a little less threatening than a Civilian, see where I am going?

Like I said, I just wanted an open discussion and I know I am not going to change any minds...not flaming nor do I have any hard feelings toward anyone, I just think the whole thing is unfortunate.
 
Flinx, no problem. Actually, speaking for myself, I'm glad to see the subject brought up now and then. It kind of clears the air about these things and the discussions that develop are usually fun. You didn't stir up a hornet's nest, you just rattled a few cages & woke up a few critters.
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You are also right about the sales to Forumites. There was a time that BFC members could order the Matriarch directly from SFO but that ended around the end of the year. I'm not sure why but some of them started showing up outside the desired circle of "authorized" owners and, I suspect, that the sales may have been curtailed because of that. If so, it is another example of a few jerks screwing things up for everyone.

It could also have been that supplies were simply getting low and there weren't enough left to supply both the LEO and BFC markets. I suspect that it may have been a combination of the two.

David, you weren't hurting my sales since I don't sell these things to the general public. Even if I did, I think the world is a big enough place to be able to accomodate more than a few dealers selling the same things. Don't worry. Be happy.
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As far as the conditions of the sale of the Matriarch are concerned, while I agreed to them, I don't necessarily agree with them.

My objection is on more of a philosophical level in that if the average citizen isn't considered to be worthy of posessing them, then why should the LEO or the military member be able to? Don's gun control analogy is right on here.

This is the USA, not some third world country or dictatorship where the police and military are feared to the point where they are allowed to exercize rights and priveledges that are denied the average "citizens" (read subjects). Here, in theory at least, all of us are subject to the same laws and standards of general conduct.

To be told that the best or the most effective tool for self defense, be it edged or otherwise, is not available to the common citizen, is offensive to many of us. The notion that we are all judged "guilty until proven innocent" goes against the very principles of our society and to lump all of us in the same category as the criminal, simply because we aren't in the right occupation or tax bracket only adds insult to injury.

Finally, the idea that price is a deterrent to the improper or inappropriate use of a weapon or any other implement is ludicrous. The notion that if one can afford a $200.00+ knife like the Civilian he or she is somehow more trustworthy and honest than one who would pay "only" $79.00 for a Matriarch is the height of elitism and does disservice to the ordinary folk who make up the majority of our society.

I'm not, for one minute, suggeting that Sal or anyone else at Spyderco subscribes to the above attitudes or beliefs. I suspect, however, that in this case the legal department won out over marketing on the distribution of these tools.

Spyderco has always been a bit timid when it comes to that arena. Lawsuits ain't fun and I don't think we really want the prices of Enduras and Delicas, etc. to go up to cover the added legal expenses.

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Dennis Wright
("Have a knife day!")

(NSBFC)
 
Great thread, and one that really needs to be aired as I also need opinions.

Alan. You are correct in your reasons and choice. That is what the Matriarch was designed for. Women in South Africa are currently having a difficult time of it and the Matriarch was a solution.

I offered them to the forunites (as a special gift) in a gray color. We made 500 for the forunites. They purchased less than 100.

We offerred them to LEO's in an effort to be somewhat responsible. If a LEO wants to buy one for a responsible friend, that is not a problem, but at least someone is paying attention.

A $10 knock off could really be a problem for us.

Merlins and Harpy's were designed for cutting line. They are also under 3" in blade length.

I've been watching knife laws and public opinion regarding knives for a long time. Even before we introduced the 1st one hander in '81.

With the current boom in autos and semi autos, we believe that something negative will probably come down the pike. I agree that the way a knife opens is a poor reason to outlaw something, but I still must deal with reality as I perceive it.

I would not be opposed to all responsible women carrying Matriarchs...might bring in a little respect, but I don't make the laws.

I also appreciate the way this is being handled on the forum (we don't flame here, too childish).

We could certainly make a lot of money selling semi autos or Matriarchs to anyone, and we know all of the "arguments". We also live in a society where knives still create fear in many non-knife people...non-knife people that make laws.

We appreciate dealers like Dennis that understand and will help, even though he may not agree. The issue here is "responsible", not LEOs. Heck, even if I don't agree with the laws, I am still an American with concern for the future on my country. How else can we do this?

I'm open to suggestions, as always. Please remember that we are part of a culture that must learn to cooperate more effectively. The alternative is a "Mad Max" world.

Regarding hawkbills being around for a while, non that looked like Spydercos were around until the Harpy came out in the mid 80's. Also keep in mind that a serrated Spyderco redefined "sharp" in the industry.

Alan, email me.

Thanx for the intelligent discussion.

sal
 
Great discussion!

I know what an auto knife is but is a semi-auto something like the Onion speed-safe mechanism and similar products?

Sal, you have email.
 
Well, I am glad that this turned out well. I wonder Sal, what happened to the other 400 Matriarchs that did not sell, were they sent to dealers? I tried to find one at the SFO website, but could not. I am sorry to hear that only 100 of them sold, but membership here has increased tremendously since then, perhaps another try with the remaining stock?
Also, I realize Spyderco has an image to maintain, and also that there may be a perceived cost problem. However, that cost problem if I understand correctly it that since the Matriarch is a lower priced model, that one MAY (for emphasis) find its way into the hands of those who would do wrong with it.
Now OTOH, you are reserving sale to LEOs, and that is something I can respect to a point, but IMO it does a great disservice to those afficionados of Spyderco Products who are not in the LEO field.
 
Wow, I had no idea that less than one hundred were sold. Perhaps it has something to do with it being on an Endura type handle and the price at which it was sold through SFO.
Enduras have become for me a high quality low stress at the incidence of loss knife, meaning that I carry them, like on the water, when there is an increased chance of loss. This is many due to the fact that Enduras can usually be found by the astute knife buyer for around 35 dollars. I forget exactly what I paid for my Matriarch but it was a lot more than 35 dollars, which was the reason behind not purchasing more than one, not to mention I assumed that they would be available to BF members indefinitely.

Sal has bent over backward with this forum, especially with special edition knives. Unfortunately, they haven't sold quite as well as expected due to a plethora of reasons, ie. the BF native. Sypderco isn't turning a great profit on BF member's business. Now of course if they released a titanium scaled police in 440V, then a profit would be turned.
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at least from me.

Sort of funny, I carried an aluminum handled civilian in New Orleans during the early 90's while a student at Tulane, when tending bar and walking to and from my house. Concealed permits were almost impossible to get in Louisiana in those days and a civilian coupled with an ASP baton was the best alternative I had. Still remember going into Chalmette Jewelry and asking for the civilian by name, it was stuck way back under the counter, the zippered case covered in dust, and the shop owner had no idea how long it had been there or what it was. Paid ninety dollars for it. I've bought three since that inaugural civilian, and have paid more than ninety dollars every single other time.

There is no right answer here. I hate that cost is the factor, which allows the civilian sold unrestricted and the Matriarch LEO. America has lost much of it's appreciation for those who work harder than most and are compensated less for their effort. What we have to consider though is that the BF membership is a particularly unique spectrum of American society, and what we see as rational, the average does not. As my previous point above where the bulk of Spyderco's profits are derived from, makes Sal's decision to restrict release in the U.S. a smart and wise business decision. For all you BF members, save your money at get a civilian and enjoy the neat zippered case. Only time I use my Matriarch is when running, and the issue is weight, the civilian pulls my shorts down. Not something one wants to happen randomly.


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"Women bring life into the world
and much death, for they sway the
destinies of men." -Anneas
 
Sal
I'm sorry too that less than 100 were sold. I tried to do my part. I got the three I was allowed. One is carried occasionally. one is in the display caes and the otheris on back-up duty if needed.
Here in GA you can get a CCW (permit to carry concealed) relatively easily so a knife is a back-up not main-line method of defense. However everyone that has seen my Matriarch usually has the same reaction, "OH S**T!!!".
I really would like to get a couple or three more. I try to protect the wife but I have a Granddaughter, one daughter-in-law, and a son that's single (future daughter-in-law?). Hopefully they will have a method to use for self defense if needed in the future, but I would like them to at least have an option.

Sal thanks for all you do/have done for the guys and gals here at BFC. Maybe with more members future projects will go better.


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Dwight

It's a fine line between "a hobby" and "mental illness".
 
If there were already 500 made and under 100 sold....offer them again to BF?

Sal,

I did not in any way mean to insult you by saying that the Merlin/Harpy was like the old Hawksbill design, it was innovative, it had a better lock, you could open it with one hand, it had a pocket clip and it sure was sharp. In other words, it was an age old Hawksbill with modern materials and your attention to detail. No mere Hawksbill, but something that almost all Americans could identify with as being around for quite some time, that is what I was pointing to.
 
Well, Sal, I'm glad you're not offended by my starting this thread. I really only wanted some clarification. But, now that the subject has come up, is there any chance that you might offer the Matriarch to BF members again? I know I just joined the forum but I would like to say thank you for making the wonderful and unique knives that you do. Even if I don't get the chance to purchase a Matriarch, I still love the looks I get when I pull out my Delica to cut open a package at work for a customer. More often than not I get the "Wow, that's a _____ (neat, weird, cool, interesting) knife!" What kind is that and where do I get one? Just trying to do my part to bring more people into the fold

Thanks again,
Flinx
 
I don't know if this matters, but I only have two knife shops around here, and both recieved a fresh shipment of spyderco's, both have a matriarch lying in the front window now. The biggest of the two has 5 matriarch.

maybe of influence: I live in Europe, and those matriarch's cost much more than suggested retail. About 90 $.

Oh... the shop with the five matriarch's has only four left, due to me
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You should try to attack a cardboard box with it. Wouldn't wanna be my attacker in real life. Still, I don't carry it. I only carry my native in CPM 440 V. Best knife for daily chores. Thanks Sal, for making such a great knife !
 
Phillip - The others were in fact sent to dealers for sales to LEOs. Most were actual dealers in Police/military supplies and a few like Dennis Wright that are more serious about the knife industry.

They were never put on the website. It was just a deal that forumites were aware of.

I don't know current status of the "gray" model (the 500). The rest were made in black.

We do not have a problem selling them into Europe or Israel. At least not right now. Their "gang" problem is not as great as ours right now.

Selling them to LEOs has the advantage in that if an LEO chooses to make them available to their friends, they will more than likely "pick & choose". I don't think that we're going to see any LEOs selling Matriarchs to gangs on street corners.

I guess an important factor in all of this is that: Some people will do anything or sell anything in their "hunting of the wild greenback". Spyderco feels that we do have an obligation to try to look at a "bigger" picture which includes the future as well as the non-knife person.

Most of you will agree that the Civilian & Matriarch are best left out of sight in the world of non-knife people. This is also illogical since a sharp serrated (or even plain) Delica is formidable if necessary.

I don't have any problems with any knife related subject. Truth is a requirement in discussion. Flames are usually the result of "non thinkers" just asserting their point of view. Often without ears and more often than not, just screaming about what they want like a baby crying for it's bottle. "People only disagree when they have unequal knowledge". Sharing of knowledge is the solution to disagreement. That is why the forums are so valuable. Especially this one where the participants are careful to be respectful.

sal
 
Sorry for the late-comment, but as I was just out in Colorado while this topic was in full-stride, and happened to stop at SFO, it really is interesting to add that they had a GREY-handled Matriarch in the showcase (marked LEO's only). I have my BF Models, and they are the same. This may help to explain where at least some of the orignal 500 are.
Sal, it is good to know that you are not averse to LEO's selectively purchasing the black-handled Matriarch's for those friends they feel are trustworthy.

PS: After seeing the area for the first time, I understand why you chose Golden for your operation...beautiful country!
Brian


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Life Member NRA & PMA, member AKTI, NKCA, ATA, and any other worthy cause I can find.

 
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