The New Hossom Black Espada in CPM-3V
- Thread starter Gaucho
- Start date
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- Aug 1, 1999
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- 3,036
Adamant, I can give you some ideas on that. The Saber and the Machete are/were experiments in blade design. Of the two the Machete is the better cutting tool, while the hand-and-a-half handle on the Saber has turned out to be a lot more functional than I expected.
Here's my take on what I've learned.
The angled forward edge on the Machete and Saber is a very effective cutting device, providing excellent penetration into a cut. Basically it acts like an additional point at the location where the blade is most likely to have initial contact with the target. From what I know, the ideal sword edge would use such a design, but it is a devil to sharpen accurately, the forward edge being a compound angle, and I'm not entirely confident how that edge point will tolerate hard contact. The curved edge as on the Espada is stronger.
The hand-and-a-half handle offers some obvious and one not-so-obvious advantages. The extended handle balances the whole blade a little better without much additional weight. The ability to bring the off hand into the stroke for additional power can be quite useful, and the handle is shaped so that the second hand positions itself where it should be, very quickly. The unexpected benefit was noted by Laci Szabo while at the Blade Show this year. He demonstrated that it was fairly easy to allow the primary hand to move to the rear of the handle, using the midhandle drop that usually supports that hand in a normal grip as a subhilt in the rear position. This adds about 3" of reach to the sword, bringing it that much closer to the opponent at a moment when doing so might be decisive.
As a pure fighting sword, the Espada blade offers a good combination of qualities. The primary cutting edge is very effective, providing sufficient angle change during a cut to make it penetrate well. The sharpened swedge (actually a narrow double grind) provides most of the advantages of a double edged blade, without compromising the primary edge. And the point formed by the junction of the two edges is both strong and effective, as on a double edged blade.
In my judgement the Espada with a hand-and-a-half handle is the best combination of blade and grip. But I only make these things. My warrior days are long past...
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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
Here's my take on what I've learned.
The angled forward edge on the Machete and Saber is a very effective cutting device, providing excellent penetration into a cut. Basically it acts like an additional point at the location where the blade is most likely to have initial contact with the target. From what I know, the ideal sword edge would use such a design, but it is a devil to sharpen accurately, the forward edge being a compound angle, and I'm not entirely confident how that edge point will tolerate hard contact. The curved edge as on the Espada is stronger.
The hand-and-a-half handle offers some obvious and one not-so-obvious advantages. The extended handle balances the whole blade a little better without much additional weight. The ability to bring the off hand into the stroke for additional power can be quite useful, and the handle is shaped so that the second hand positions itself where it should be, very quickly. The unexpected benefit was noted by Laci Szabo while at the Blade Show this year. He demonstrated that it was fairly easy to allow the primary hand to move to the rear of the handle, using the midhandle drop that usually supports that hand in a normal grip as a subhilt in the rear position. This adds about 3" of reach to the sword, bringing it that much closer to the opponent at a moment when doing so might be decisive.
As a pure fighting sword, the Espada blade offers a good combination of qualities. The primary cutting edge is very effective, providing sufficient angle change during a cut to make it penetrate well. The sharpened swedge (actually a narrow double grind) provides most of the advantages of a double edged blade, without compromising the primary edge. And the point formed by the junction of the two edges is both strong and effective, as on a double edged blade.
In my judgement the Espada with a hand-and-a-half handle is the best combination of blade and grip. But I only make these things. My warrior days are long past...
------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
Steel INFO: Steel goes through a complete chemical (is that the right word?) tranformation when it is heat treated... the molecules actually change to a different substance.....it starts out as (hope i spell these words right!) austenite and ends up as martensite.....and what you want is complete transformation...however that never happens (think i am right about that but not sure)/ so the cryo makes the steel go farther in the complete tranformation of martensite from austentite.....we need Paul Bos right about now....but I am fairly sure this is at least ball park correct.....He hangs the blades in his trick boxes...slides them into his expensive furnace.....pumps in nitrogen or some such stuff...and stress relieves them.....then lowers to room temp....goes back up to hardness heat and soak...then down to around 300 (this is for ats and 440c/dont know anything about 3v) and then takes them out with asbestos gloves, lets them cool off somewhat and sticks them into liquid nitrogen....this is where the complete chemical reaction takes place.... full hard......then out after a long soak and into some different ovens for one or two or three tempering cycles to bring down the hardness and bring up the toughness....he can get them any rockwell you want (that the steel will go to anyhow) but I always leave it up to him, except for machetes and camp knives.....I always ask him to drop the rockwell a few points on these to make them tougher......by the way....the corrosion resistance of a lot of the modern "stainless steels" goes out the window under 56c Rockwell.
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http://www.mayoknives.com
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http://www.mayoknives.com
Well, boys, that was as elevated an example of the Tom and Jerry show as I've ever witnessed- you two are learning to play together very well
.
Seriously, thank you both for for furthering our understanding.
Mario
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Gaucho
Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.
Seriously, thank you both for for furthering our understanding.
Mario
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Gaucho
Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 1999
- Messages
- 3,036
Tom gets lucky once in awhile...
In fact, though they are not considered stress relieving processes in the chemical sense, hardening, cooling and cryogenic quenching allow the steel to relax internal stresses, as evidenced by the fact that it often warps during each of these procedures. Warps are the steel's way of getting the kinks out of its structure. My grinds tend to induce a lot of such warps and Paul has to straighten most of my blades to get them back to completely linear. With 3V that is a very demanding process.
Most folks don't know this but many steels, like ATS-34 for example, can be easily bent by hand while it is still warm from the hardening oven, even though it is at full hardness, maybe Rc62. Once it is completely cold, it doesn't bend except under duress. This is clear evidence of the care and attention Paul gives to the blades he heat treats - every blade must be handled and straightened individually. That's why I ship steel from Georgia to California for heat treating.
It's also the one point on which Tom and I will always agree.
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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
In fact, though they are not considered stress relieving processes in the chemical sense, hardening, cooling and cryogenic quenching allow the steel to relax internal stresses, as evidenced by the fact that it often warps during each of these procedures. Warps are the steel's way of getting the kinks out of its structure. My grinds tend to induce a lot of such warps and Paul has to straighten most of my blades to get them back to completely linear. With 3V that is a very demanding process.
Most folks don't know this but many steels, like ATS-34 for example, can be easily bent by hand while it is still warm from the hardening oven, even though it is at full hardness, maybe Rc62. Once it is completely cold, it doesn't bend except under duress. This is clear evidence of the care and attention Paul gives to the blades he heat treats - every blade must be handled and straightened individually. That's why I ship steel from Georgia to California for heat treating.
It's also the one point on which Tom and I will always agree.
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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2000
- Messages
- 622
As a Nuclear Engineer with a minor in Metallurgy I had to learn all these process 30 years ago. Here goes and I may be a bit rusty since I have been in management for many years. The process you are talking about is not checmical but physical . the constituents of the steel mixture do not change, only the crystal structure and grain boudary arrangements and partcles within the grains. the martensitic transformation is where the steel changes from only ctrystal structure to another and is accomplished very rapidly and I have been told you can here the change as a click when it occurs. The use of cryogenics is to make the sure the change occurs in all the material at the same time. This makes for a very birttle material and the stress relieving makes the matrix less brittle. As I said this is based on my memory and if we have a metallurgist around maybe he can comment. hope this helps.
P.S. Gaucho. thnaks for the pic, I will work with Jerry for something just a little bit longer but with the same style. Do you have your sheaths made out of Kydex or Kydex lined. I have a small Corbet Sigman Utility Hunter in 440V with the swedge sharpened 1" go right thru the leather sheath! A kydex lined one is being made by R Schrap. Again thanks for the info!
P.S. Gaucho. thnaks for the pic, I will work with Jerry for something just a little bit longer but with the same style. Do you have your sheaths made out of Kydex or Kydex lined. I have a small Corbet Sigman Utility Hunter in 440V with the swedge sharpened 1" go right thru the leather sheath! A kydex lined one is being made by R Schrap. Again thanks for the info!
Budrichard,
Thanks for clarifying the austenite to martensite process. You see, you just never know what you are going to learn on the Forums
.
My sheathes are all concealex lined- definitely safer that way, as well as optimizing both blade retention and ease of drawing.
I figured that a knife like my Challenger but with a longer blade might be just what you've been looking for. The blade profile, guard, and handle would work great all the way up to bowie length.
Take Care,
Mario
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Gaucho
Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.
Thanks for clarifying the austenite to martensite process. You see, you just never know what you are going to learn on the Forums
My sheathes are all concealex lined- definitely safer that way, as well as optimizing both blade retention and ease of drawing.
I figured that a knife like my Challenger but with a longer blade might be just what you've been looking for. The blade profile, guard, and handle would work great all the way up to bowie length.
Take Care,
Mario
------------------
Gaucho
Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.
Thanks Jerry,
For the info. on your different designs. Choosing doesn't get easier though...because I now want more Hossom swords than I can afford!
(BTW, I'm that rather ignorant guy from the UK who has been bombarding you with many unnecessary questions-figured out who I am yet?-Anyway, thanks for always being patient)
For the info. on your different designs. Choosing doesn't get easier though...because I now want more Hossom swords than I can afford!
(BTW, I'm that rather ignorant guy from the UK who has been bombarding you with many unnecessary questions-figured out who I am yet?-Anyway, thanks for always being patient)
Thanks Jerry,
For the info. on your different designs. Choosing doesn't get easier though...because I now want more Hossom swords than I can afford!
(BTW, I'm that rather ignorant guy from the UK who has been bombarding you with many unnecessary questions-figured out who I am yet?-Anyway, thanks for always being patient)
[This message has been edited by Adamant (edited 10-10-2000).]
For the info. on your different designs. Choosing doesn't get easier though...because I now want more Hossom swords than I can afford!
(BTW, I'm that rather ignorant guy from the UK who has been bombarding you with many unnecessary questions-figured out who I am yet?-Anyway, thanks for always being patient)
[This message has been edited by Adamant (edited 10-10-2000).]
sniperboy
Gold Member
- Joined
- Oct 19, 1999
- Messages
- 2,832
Jeeeeeerrrrryyyyy!!! *pout* (me does my impression of Matt Hossom
) It's so beautiful. Thanks for reviewing this blade Gaucho. A always I am a big fan of your force du resistance 'special' cutting tests
If there is a desire for a longer challenger (ofcorse I have one of those ^_^.. http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/razorback.jpg ) maybe Jerry can look into a more curved version of his duelist series. Heck I know he must be sick of grinding them super popula millenium fighters.
As always will look forward to all you new reviews Sir. They just ecxcite me so.
As for the effectiveness of a hand and a half espanda.. i'll find out soon. Sigh. need to work overtime BIG time now
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<A HREF="http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html
</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]
If there is a desire for a longer challenger (ofcorse I have one of those ^_^.. http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/razorback.jpg ) maybe Jerry can look into a more curved version of his duelist series. Heck I know he must be sick of grinding them super popula millenium fighters.
As always will look forward to all you new reviews Sir. They just ecxcite me so.
As for the effectiveness of a hand and a half espanda.. i'll find out soon. Sigh. need to work overtime BIG time now
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<A HREF="http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html
</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]
Sniperboy,
Nice to hear from you! I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who fell in love with the Challenger the first time I saw a pic of the prototype. I was just out in the woods training with it- Man, I had a blast! My endorphins are flying right now
.
And now you're going to be the proud owner of a hand-and-a-half Espada. I can't wait to hear how you like it.
Take Care,
Mario
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Gaucho
Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.
Nice to hear from you! I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who fell in love with the Challenger the first time I saw a pic of the prototype. I was just out in the woods training with it- Man, I had a blast! My endorphins are flying right now
And now you're going to be the proud owner of a hand-and-a-half Espada. I can't wait to hear how you like it.
Take Care,
Mario
------------------
Gaucho
Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.
dogboye
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 1999
- Messages
- 6,909
You guys are making me sick, Sick SICK!!!!
I want a Hossom!!!! NOWWWWW!!!
OK, now that that little tantrum is off my chest.... I can't wait to get my first. Don't even have a time line yet... but, oh boy... am I looking forward to it.
Sniperboy, that is one BEAUTIFUL blade ya have there. That isn't the same one that was at the SECK show, is it? That one looks like it has stainless bolsters, not copper. You mean you have TWO?!
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iktomi
I want a Hossom!!!! NOWWWWW!!!
OK, now that that little tantrum is off my chest.... I can't wait to get my first. Don't even have a time line yet... but, oh boy... am I looking forward to it.
Sniperboy, that is one BEAUTIFUL blade ya have there. That isn't the same one that was at the SECK show, is it? That one looks like it has stainless bolsters, not copper. You mean you have TWO?!
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iktomi
sniperboy
Gold Member
- Joined
- Oct 19, 1999
- Messages
- 2,832
I can't remember how many times I have bugged Jerry for a double edged weehawk style fighter and this was his answer. I love it and carry it all the time (uhm.. wait I dont think I shoudl be saying that..
) but yeah I am not sure if mnine was the prototype but I thin it was one of the first out.. I KNEW I had to have it.. and hell I worked so hard to annoy jerry to make a double edger
I can't wait for my espada y daga set.. (along with the 20 knives I have on indefinite order
) ) Jerry and I were talking that you shoudl one day just stop making money and come over to visit in a show.. Blade Show 2001 maybe? THe ticket to the casa de hossom party is that you gotta have one of his knives and I think that shoudl be no problem
Nice seeing ya ROckSpyder, fancy meeting you here. It was a pleasure back in the NC knife show.. hold on to yer bali sir. It's nice. This knife (link above) was on my back at the time I was talking to you I think. but the one you saw was an earlier blade that Jerry repolished and rehandled.
and SPyder.. you DO NOT want to know how many Hossom knives I have.. let's just put it at that.
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<A HREF="http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html
</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]
Nice seeing ya ROckSpyder, fancy meeting you here. It was a pleasure back in the NC knife show.. hold on to yer bali sir. It's nice. This knife (link above) was on my back at the time I was talking to you I think. but the one you saw was an earlier blade that Jerry repolished and rehandled.
and SPyder.. you DO NOT want to know how many Hossom knives I have.. let's just put it at that.
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<A HREF="http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html
</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]
dogboye
Gold Member
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- Nov 23, 1999
- Messages
- 6,909
Sniperboy... just as long as it is not as many as the bali's that you had rolled up in your collection bag, I think I'll survive. If it IS that many... I truly DON'T want to know.
Nice carry, if you had that on you at the show. I never noticed. And I TRY to look for things like that; gun printing, knife printing, etc. Especially at a show! Oh man, I can't wait to get one of his.
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iktomi
Nice carry, if you had that on you at the show. I never noticed. And I TRY to look for things like that; gun printing, knife printing, etc. Especially at a show! Oh man, I can't wait to get one of his.
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iktomi