The Norseman, Most bang for your buck

bpeezer said:
The dictionary definition of custom is "made to fit the needs or requirements of a particular person". To me, high quality hand made knives aren't "customs" unless they're designed and built entirely for someone's desired specifications. Not many people think that way though, that's just my two cents.
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That's the way that I had originally understood the meaning of "custom", but that term seems to have changed its meaning to just a knife being made mostly/entirely by the maker itself.
 
When you start seeing knives being made by cnc in batches I think the custom label no longer applies.
For me a custom is a knife that differs in some way and is made mostly be the maker. Maybe a pocket clip or hardware can be out sourced but
it definitely needs to have a hand ground blade and edge. But I can see why this topic of debate always has so many different point of views. It's just not as black and white as other topics.
 
I respect John but honestly I have a hard time calling him a "knifemaker". He got his introduction to the knife world CNC'ing custom scales for knives like the manix, cqc-7, and para 2. Then he decided to slap some ti on his machine and pump out a knife. I will admit he makes a very attractive product, but for the same amount of money a norseman costs I would much prefer to order a brian tighe tighebreaker with carbon fiber sculpted handles. To completely cnc the scales, clip, thumb stud, and blade, then send it out for heat treating, and then slap it on a wicked edge and charge ~500 right out the gate I just really don't stand behind.
 
spyderco lover said:
I respect John but honestly I have a hard time calling him a "knifemaker". He got his introduction to the knife world CNC'ing custom scales for knives like the manix, cqc-7, and para 2. Then he decided to slap some ti on his machine and pump out a knife. I will admit he makes a very attractive product, but for the same amount of money a norseman costs I would much prefer to order a brian tighe tighebreaker with carbon fiber sculpted handles. To completely cnc the scales, clip, thumb stud, and blade, then send it out for heat treating, and then slap it on a wicked edge and charge ~500 right out the gate I just really don't stand behind.
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Completely agree.
 
I don't think John considers himself a knife maker.

Also Brian Tighe is not a good comparison because he does a large majority of his work on cnc as well just not all of it.
 
I'm lucky that I was able to get in on the upcoming February batch. I'm just playing the waiting game right now.
 
Hairlesstwinkie said:
That's the way that I had originally understood the meaning of "custom", but that term seems to have changed its meaning to just a knife being made mostly/entirely by the maker itself.
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That's why I'm standing by my definition, because the connotation keeps changing while the denotation stays the same. It's just too confusing for me to try to nail down a solid definition. Just like your sig line, I'm trying to "keep things simple" :)
 
I think the $500-$600 folders from John W. Smith are some of the finest available. While he makes a lot of higher dollar art knives, the "tactical style" folders he makes get the same attention to detail as the art knives. You just have to fondle one to appreciate them.
 
Wow. The logic some of you are trying to use to put labels John and his products is absolutely ridiculous. Do you really think that using and coding a CNC machine to make a Norseman is easy? It's not a black box that takes in raw materials at one end and spits out a finished product at the other with the push of a button. There is an immense amount of refining and finishing involved. It takes talent, skill, and care to do what he does. He's using CNC for precision, accuracy, and repeatability. Long ago knife-makers used hammers and files to shape their blades, then belt grinders came about and that changed the manufacturing process. I guess the local knife community back then didn't think these jackasses using these new voodoo electric belt grinders weren't "knife-makers" either. The man makes folding knives in his garage for a living. What else is he if not a knife-maker? He orders the raw materials to his shop, and he puts the finished product in the mail addressed to you. He and his brother are there from start to finish. How is that not hand made? You can request any custom touches you want. How is that not a "custom" knife. And to imply that his products are overprice when you haven't the slightest idea of what it takes to do what he does is beyond me. Do you think all of your favorite knifemakers share your opinion? He doubtless receives an immense amount of respect from Hinderer and Tighe as a fellow knife-maker.

BTW, Ken Onion supposedly coined the term "mid-tech" to differentiate between 100% in house manufacturing and <100% in house. Because at the time Mr. Onion was making some custom knives 100% in house as well as some that were partially farmed out to keep up with demand. He had certain models that he wanted to custom make, but there was still demand for older designs that he didn't have time for. It ensures that the customer knows which is which. If you want to be nit-picky, sure you could call the Norseman a mid-tech because John doesn't do his own heat treat. As far as I know, heat treat and stonewashing are the only processes John doesn't do himself. But I tend to think "mid-tech" applies when a knifemaker is taking on multiple designs at once and simply can't do it all personally. John is only making the Norseman. He farms out the heat treat and tumbling because he can't do it himself to the standards he holds for his products. It's not a side project he doesn't have time for. I'm glad to see he's having the heat treat done professionally, rather than in a little shop kiln.

I'm a fan of JG's work. I think the Norseman might be a bit too big for my tastes, but I do have his Ti scales on my Para II. I'm pretty proud to own them.

 
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Moxy said:
As far as I know, heat treat and stonewashing are the only processes John doesn't do himself.
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In one of his videos he said something about selling his anodizing equipment and sending that work to a local business. BTW, your PM2 is gorgeous :D John's work is outstanding, no matter how it's labeled.
 
Moxy said:
Wow. The logic some of you are trying to use to put labels John and his products is absolutely ridiculous. Do you really think that using and coding a CNC machine to make a Norseman is easy? It's not a black box that takes in raw materials at one end and spits out a finished product at the other with the push of a button. There is an immense amount of refining and finishing involved. It takes talent, skill, and care to do what he does. He's using CNC for precision, accuracy, and repeatability. Long ago knife-makers used hammers and files to shape their blades, then belt grinders came about and that changed the manufacturing process. I guess the local knife community back then didn't think these jackasses using these new voodoo electric belt grinders weren't "knife-makers" either. The man makes folding knives in his garage for a living. What else is he if not a knife-maker? He orders the raw materials to his shop, and he puts the finished product in the mail addressed to you. He and his brother are there from start to finish. How is that not hand made? You can request any custom touches you want. How is that not a "custom" knife. And to imply that his products are overprice when you haven't the slightest idea of what it takes to do what he does is beyond me. Do you think all of your favorite knifemakers share your opinion? He doubtless receives an immense amount of respect from Hinderer and Tighe as a fellow knife-maker.

John is only making the Norseman. He farms out the heat treat and tumbling because he can't do it himself to the standards he holds for his products. It's not a side project he doesn't have time for. I'm glad to see he's having the heat treat done professionally, rather than in a little shop kiln.
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I'm on board with Moxy here folks. To outright say he isn't a "Knifemaker" simply because he doesn't follow the standard practices that you think should be employed is a bit left field. Furthermore, to question his prices because it's "just a CNC" job? I'd challenge any one of you to buy all of the equipment necessary to pull off an equivalent blade and feel good about selling it for less.

At one time, our hamburgers were all hand pressed delicious piles of cow. Now they're stamped out meat pucks, by a robot with a punch.

We still call them hamburgers.


My long story short:
Call John what you will, but I won't hear that he isn't a knifemaker. The man makes knives.
 
bpeezer said:
In one of his videos he said something about selling his anodizing equipment and sending that work to a local business. BTW, your PM2 is gorgeous :D John's work is outstanding, no matter how it's labeled.
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Aluminum anodizing, yes, he no longer does that. But he still does titanium anodizing himself, and there is no aluminum in his Norseman.
 
This discussion probably should have been in Custom & Handmade. They are experts in wrangling over the fine points of what makes a knife a true custom. There are levels of involvement, and some are more persuasive than others.

In the strictest sense, a custom knife is made to order for a customer, at his request and following his requirements and design. Custom makers develop their own styles, and knowledgeable customers can go to them for a variant of that style, still considering it custom.

One point you need to consider is sole authorship. A knifemaker can use the latest high-tech equipment, but if all the parts are made and assembled in his shop by his own efforts, he will be accepted as a custom maker.

Knives made to high standards of materials and fit & finish are not necessarily customs. CRK get called semi-custom out of respect for the quality, but they are standard designs made by a shop and sold on the open market like any ordinary production knives. They can be customized but even that is generally restricted to specific items like dual thumblugs or engraving.

In fact, the possible levels of involvement of customer, knifemaker, and dealer are complex. Knifemakers are generally very open about how they make their knives. This is probably more important to an informed buyer than how any given step in the process is done.

Just don't post customized knives for sale in the custom forums of the Exchange! :D
 
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