The Old 440C

[KeithAM]

I've got 2 questions about the old Bock 440C:

1. Did Buck's Catra tests show 420hc holds an edge longer than 440C when the edge geometry is the same?


2. I'm sure you've heard the old saw about Buck's 440C being hard to sharpen. I've never had a problem with it myself. Do you think that reputation may have evolved in the 60s and 70s, when most other available knives were 1095 run a couple of points softer? Also, do you think it's hard to sharpen? Compared to what?

 

[wh4f]

1. Did Buck's Catra tests show 420hc holds an edge longer than 440C when the edge geometry is the same?

I am unsure... but this is copied from Bucks web site:
A computerized test for edge retention, developed by CATRA (Cutlery and Allied Trades Research Association), is performed on blades for each knife model. For inspection, a laser-measuring device, called a goniometer, is used to check the precise angle measurements to verify that the edge matches specifications. Edge2x blades have been compared against our older Buck blades and evaluated using the CATRA tests, which proved the superiority of our new edging process.

(It doesnt specifically say 440C just "older")

With Edge2x Technology, every knife made by Buck is sharper out of the box, holds an edge much longer and is easier to re-sharpen when needed.

2. I'm sure you've heard the old saw about Buck's 440C being hard to sharpen. I've never had a problem with it myself. Do you think that reputation may have evolved in the 60s and 70s, when most other available knives were 1095 run a couple of points softer? Also, do you think it's hard to sharpen? Compared to what?

I think it is harder to get to the same sharpness as the 420HC.
The semi hollow grind and the thicker blades on the 440C made it more difficult (for me) to get razor sharp. The new(er) edge 2X, made it super easy for me to get all of the newer knives razor sharp!
I really like the steeper edge. I actually sold all of my older users to buy the 420HC knives. Not that there was anything wrong with them (440C), but the 420HC is EASY to sharpen and stays sharp for quite a while! (IMHO)

 

[110 Dave]

i think that the thicker edge of the 440C made it a fantaskic work tool!!!
never had a problum sharpening it ... the thicker edge made for fewer broke tips!!
that said the full hollow grind 420hc is easer to re edge it.!!!

now - a 440c could be sharpened past were the temper in the steel was...
this resulted in not being able to get an edge at all... almost sharp then gone dull again.
i have not used a 420 that much to know if you can get past the temper in the steel.

 

[Scott Hartman]

I really like the old 440C and the semi-hollow grinds.

 

[Hawkeye5]

now - a 440c could be sharpened past were the temper in the steel was...
this resulted in not being able to get an edge at all... almost sharp then gone dull again.
i have not used a 420 that much to know if you can get past the temper in the steel.[/QUOTE]

This is very interisting Decaff.I had a 1976 mod 112 that I let the butcher
at the Piggly wiggly Sharpon for me and he layed it down flat on a very
course rock. The still looked different in places where he had sharpened a lot .
Is this what you mean by temper in a 440c blade?

 

[KeithAM]

Now a 440c could be sharpened past were the temper in the steel was...
this resulted in not being able to get an edge at all... almost sharp then gone dull again.
i have not used a 420 that much to know if you can get past the temper in the steel.

So you're saying the 440C was not through-hardened? That would be unusual.

Anyway, the CATRA information on the Buck website is not what I'm looking for, at least not quite. Someone in the general forum is claiming 420hc actually beat 440C head to head in the CATRA test. IIRC 420hc was close, but did not surpass 440C, when the edge angles are the same. My own experience is that the 440C actually hold an edge longer, all else being equal.

I've never had a problem sharpening the Buck 440C, and I think the old reputation of "being a bear to sharpen" came from the fact that back in the 70s, most other knives used steel that was, in fact, easier to sharpen (1095 ruun at 56 or so). By today's standards, with steels like ZDP-189, S30V, D2, and the like, 440C is actually pretty easy to sharpen. What do you think??

 

[wh4f]

My own experience is that the 440C actually hold an edge longer, all else being equal.
What do you think??

I agree 100% (compared to 420HC)
(but the old knives had a different grind so all things cannot be equal)

By today's standards, with steels like ZDP-189, S30V, D2, and the like, 440C is actually pretty easy to sharpen. What do you think??

If the knives had the exact same angle and grind shape, it may be different but when I compared the 440C with the older semi hollow grind to the 420HC with the edge 2X grind, the 420HC is 10 times easier for me to get an edge on it and it holds that edge about the same length of time- to me...
I could not get the 440C as sharp as the 420HC though...
I would rather sharpen my 154Cm blade that try to get an edge on my 440C knives
Again nothing wrong with them they just seemed more "finnicky" to me.
I guess in this situation you could ask 10 people and get 10 different answers, we all sharpen slightly different and have different opinions on what a sharp knife is and, ease of sharpening!
Try one of each out and let us know what you think!

 

[KeithAM]

I agree 100% (compared to 420HC)
(but the old knives had a different grind so all things cannot be equal)

I've got a couple of 440C 110s that I've thinned the edges down to about 12 degrees per side, which is even thinner than Buck's current edge. They cut beautifully, are easy to sharpen, and hold an edge very well.

 

[wh4f]

I've got a couple of 440C 110s that I've thinned the edges down to about 12 degrees per side, which is even thinner than Buck's current edge. They cut beautifully, are easy to sharpen, and hold an edge very well.

Definately!! 440C is good stuff!
I just never thinned em down
"If" the blades were identical I am sure 440C would be more to my liking.
Blade shapes, thicknesses, and grind angles (Also the material being cut) all change how the knife cuts and takes/holds an edge.

 

[KeithAM]

Thats part of what I want to get at -- did Buck run CATRA tests with its 440C and 420hc where the edges of the blades had the same geometry? And if they did, what was the result?

Or, is this guy in general posting misleading or at least incomplete information, as in, yeah the 420hc beat the 440C, but only because the 420hs had a much thinner edge?

 

[wh4f]

did Buck run CATRA tests with its 440C and 420hc where the edges of the blades had the same geometry?

I havent seen that info, maybe Joe or CJ could answer that one!

Or, is this guy in general posting misleading or at least incomplete information, as in, yeah the 420hc beat the 440C, but only because the 420hs had a much thinner edge?

Thats my guess... Why don't you ask him to post his info and his references?

 

[knarfeng]

KeithAM, You got a link to that post?

I got a couple of the old 44C Buck blades. I never reprofiled them. They do not seem terrible to resharpen, though they do take more effort than the 420HC.

I've never run them head to head but the 440C seems to me to stay sharp longer.

 

[Scott Hartman]

So you're saying the 440C was not through-hardened? That would be unusual.

I agree,in short; the heat treat hardens,then the temper softens, to keep the blade from shattering like glass if dropped or stressed(like a spinewhack)

 

[KeithAM]

KeithAM, You got a link to that post?

I got a couple of the old 44C Buck blades. I never reprofiled them. They do not seem terrible to resharpen, though they do take more effort than the 420HC.

I've never run them head to head but the 440C seems to me to stay sharp longer.

Here ya go -- the 2 posts are at the end:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=502759

 

[wh4f]

I got this from Knivesunlimited.com.

420HC
A high carbon (HC) variation of a standard 420 steel, 420HC steels offer the excellent wear resistance of high carbon added to the superior corrosion resistance of stainless chromium steels. It can be hardened to a Rockwell hardness of Rc 58. 420HC knives are tough, sharpen well, and will hold an edge. Blades made from 420HC steel are good all-around outdoor knives.

440A, 440B, 440C, 440V
These are the best of the 400 series blade steels. 440A and 440B steels are better than lower 400 series steels, but not as good as 440C or 440V. 440C steels attain a Rockwell rating from Rc 56 to Rc 59, and are very strong and stainless. Compared to 440C, 440V steels fall slightly short in hardness, but are superior in edge retention.

ATS-34 and 154CM
ATS-34 is a trade name for a steel owned by Japan's Hitachi Steels company. It's a step up from 440C, trading off slightly less corrosion resistance for even better edge retention, with an ideal hardness between Rc 59 and Rc 61. ATS-34 blade steel is used in the best commercial knives as well as by custom knife makers. An American steel equivalent to ATS-34 is 154CM.

S30V
Developed in the U.S. by Crucible, this is a superb all around steel for hardness, edge retention, and stainlessness. S30V steel blades are easy to sharpen and have a Rockwell hardness of Rc 59 to 61. S30V is superior to 440C, ATS-34, and D2 steels.

Titanium
Titanium blades are practically maintenance free. Unlike steel, titanium blades do not contain carbon, meaning they are basically rustproof. Titanium's edge retention is outstanding, and its hardness exceeds that of steel.

So according to this (and my personal experience ) I would say that 440C would be more of a "bear" to sharpen
But I would not say that 420HC stays sharper longer.
Have the other gentleman post where he found his info from CATRA, I cannot find it
The way this info is worded it pretty much spells it out.
Goose I want a titanium blade also

 

[110 Dave]

I agree,in short; the heat treat hardens,then the temper softens, to keep the blade from shattering like glass if dropped or stressed(like a spinewhack)

I stand corrected !!! i belive should have said hardend ...

..The steel looked different in places where he had sharpened a lot ...Is this what you mean by temper in a 440c blade?

i dont think you would 'see' a the diff on hardening if the blade was polished like you do 'hammon' on differenently heat treeted blades.

So you're saying the 440C was not through-hardened? That would be unusual....

yes that is what i ment to say you can sharpen enught and be past the harding of the edge when you get in to the thicker part of the blade..
and it is not unusual .. as Scott implyed the blade would shatter with out streangth from temper softness in the thicker part of the blade

the old 440c i belive was jest fine but would rust... 425 is fine as also the HC and it dont rust..
i belive all things being equial they will preform were most would not notice at all ... but i do like the thicker blade edge of the old 110's as a work tool knife and the full hollow grind as a meat cutting tool knife
no knife is perfict for every task!!!
that is why a edc is a edc as it is great for most any tasks
it is not the best for any one single task!!!
any that is best for a single task is not a edc knife
i like s30v best for non work edc..
but the above is JMHO and based on my work knife expreances...

 

[wh4f]

no knife is perfect for every task!!!
that is why a edc is a edc as it is great for most any tasks
it is not the best for any one single task!!!
any that is best for a single task is not a edc knife

This explains why alot of us here have, umm, well, a couple Bucks!!!!!

 

[matt321]

I could never sharpen my old 440C 110. I used Arkansas stones back in those days.

The new 420HC blades sharpen easily, but then I use diamond, ceramic, and waterstones now. With these improved sharpening tools, the 440C wouldn't be a problem either.

 

[knarfeng]

I got this from Knivesunlimited.com.

440A, 440B, 440C, 440V
These are the best of the 400 series blade steels. 440A and 440B steels are better than lower 400 series steels, but not as good as 440C or 440V. 440C steels attain a Rockwell rating from Rc 56 to Rc 59, and are very strong and stainless. Compared to 440C, 440V steels fall slightly short in hardness, but are superior in edge retention.


So according to this (and my personal experience ) I would say that 440C would be more of a "bear" to sharpen
But I would not say that 420HC stays sharper longer.
Have the other gentleman post where he found his info from CATRA, I cannot find it
The way this info is worded it pretty much spells it out.
Goose I want a titanium blade also

Carpenter technologies, who makes 440C, says it goes to Rockwell 60.
440V got renamed to S60V, then it got droped from the Crucible product line IIRC.

I googled around to see what I could find for a source of the "420HC was better in Catra tests than 440C" statement. The only thing I found was a sentence to that effect on Cliff Stamp's pages cutleryscience.com. There was no clarification on Cliff's pages either.

 

[Bill Keys]

I don't know that all things being equal, edge thickness, heat treat and edge geometry (this is critical) that 420HC would OUT PERFORM 440C in CATRA testing. But, 420HC will perform to the level of 440C on edge holding.

The chemistry of 420HC is such that the primary carbides are much smaller and more uniform than those in 440C; thus, the grain structure of the steel in the heat treated condition is much finer (better/more uniform) in 420HC than in 440C. Because of the more course grain structure and carbides in 440C, it is possible to actually break out minute "chunks" from the edge of the blade in 440C (obviously needing a scope to see). This results in a rougher edge in the 440C (than in 420HC) which can have an impact on initial sharpness and edge retention. The larger carbides in 440C also tend to create more visible "pitting" in the finished blade.

Another benefit of 420HC, because of its chemistry, is its corrosion resistance as compared to 440C. The 420HC when heat treated properly will exhibit less corrosion, all things being equal.

The "functional" hardness range for both materials is not significantly different. 440C can reach RC60, but often in produciton situations will be somewhere below that. 420HC can also hit RC60, but will typically be a little below that in produciton situations. Our standard is RC58 - 60. A Rockwell of RC58 makes a good blade in that it will hold a good edge (if properly sharpened) and has reasonable ductility.

We have tested a lot of different materials, heat treats and edge angles on our CATRA machine. Without going into detailed results, as stated above, all things being equal 420HC will perform head to head with 440C on the CATRA. At the risk of offending users, a PROPERLY heat treated and PROPERLY sharpened 420HC blade will outperform high end steels that are lacking in one or both of those components. We have verified this numerous times on the CATRA machine.

When I explain about 420HC, I am also careful to point out the HC component. While the HC designation is used in the cutlery field and by steel producers, HC was not an AISI designation. This means that 420 stainless steel can really have a carbon content from the low .20 range I belienve to about .5; big spread. With a carbon content of .2, there is no way the steel could be hardened enough to make a functional blade. Thus, the HC designation started being used to roughly specify 420 stainless on the upper end of the scale; we actually specify a minimum carbon content (range) for our material.

Bill Keys
Director, Lean Manufacturing & Engineering
Buck Knives