The Original Bowie Knife-Where Is It???

According to Bernard Levine the Raymond Thorpe book is completely unreliable as a source of information, so I wouldnt rely to much on it.
Also, according to Levine, the first Wostenholm knives were exported to the US in 1830, so Jim bowie could well have carried one at the Alamo.
Surely you all have a copy of 'Levines Guide to Knives and Their Values'?!
 
While the possibility of Bowie coming into contact with one of the Wostenholme knives exists, the probability does not. The famous Engilsh maker did not have a great deal of exportation, particularly to the US until after 1848 when the firm moved to a new factory and began producing knives in some volume.

The contact between James Black, who was by the way a silversmith originally, and James Bowie, is well documented by not only Bowie side sources but also from sources on the Black side of the equation. The large volume of evidence contained in the Archives of the State of Arkansas act as ample testimony to the above.

Mr. Thorp's resources were somewhat limited by today's standards and some of his conclusions were drawn, self admittedly, by arbitrary means. However, many of his surmizes were and have subsequently been suported by later research.

That Black produced a blade of great superiority to his peers is unquestioned and greatly supported by the data available from contemporary sources. That Bowie had contact with Black is likewise supported.

While Mr. Levine's conclusions are certainly due a healthy respect there are many who have determined that the Thorp book is worthy of the same. Thorp's work is essentially a concentration on the "Knife" as opposed to the man.

The extensive bibliography and references Thorp used, even to newspapers in Texas and Arkansas as early as 1837, would serve to indicate that his efforts cannot be so lightly dismissed.
 
"Raymond Thorp's 1948 book, Bowie Knife, is probably the best collection of Jim Bowie legends and myths ever printed. Unfortunately, most of the text was long considered fact by cutlery historians....many of his 19th century bowie stories were either incorrect or not substantiated". (Steven Dick, Knife Magazine Aug. 1991)

Bernard Levine isn't the only one to have questioned Thorps credibility. Clearly, Thorp did a marvelous job with the material available at the time. Fortinately, We have come a long way since 1948.
 
PhilL, Hoffa is supposed to be under concrete somewere. The knife is with him.
 
Originally posted by Cobalt:
PhilL, Hoffa is supposed to be under concrete somewere. The knife is with him.
Click to expand...

That's the silliest thing I ever heard! That rumor was started by some hot dog manufacturer to stop people from wondering what really goes into hot dogs?
wink.gif
 
To my knowledge, Thorp's credibility has never been questioned by legitimate historians. What has been questioned are the conclusions he drew from his data sources. These are conclusions which he clearly stated were without empirical backup and for the most part just educated guesses. He offered much in the way of myth and legend and called it such. His work is not to be considered a singular source. It is a compilation of what he thought at the time were the most significant scraps of historical data, the veracity of many which he questioned. They were simply given as examples of the growth of the lore even shortly after Bowie's death.

Evidence of the confusion further exists in the two primary Randall Model 12s (Smithsonian and Thorp) which were produced not to attempt a duplication of the original Bowie but a representation of aspects of the blade (not the knife) shape and size highest in probability. It is further a part of modern lore that Thorp had some input into the design of both blades.

To state that his credibility is in question is to in essence say, "you told me you were guessing, then you guessed, and now I am going to say, because I disagree with you, that you are not to be believed."

------------------
A Patriot's Work Is Never Done--greetings from The Occupied South
 
Silly? SILLY? Don't piss me off! HE IS UNDER CONCRETE! Besides everyone knows hotdogs are made from SPAM!
 
Lots of you are right when it all goes together as I understand it.
Dr.James Batson by all accounts that I have heard has the most accurate book on the sandbar fight. The sandbar duel was the only time it is clear that Bowie killed someone with a knife. All else is speculation.

Thourp was quite accurate for his time but did not have acess to some of the data that is available today due to computers etc.

Bernie Levine does not like Thourps books because Thourp accknowledges James Black having made a knife for Jim Bowie. The antique bowie knife crowd and the WR Williamson crowd does not accknowledge James Black making the knife. Bernie falls under those catagories as I understand it.
I personaly do believe he made one as it is clearly stated in the Arkansas Gazzette that James Black from Washington Arkansas made a knife for Jim Bowie. I can look up date published etc if you wish.

It is a matter or record that Jim Bowie made numerous trips to Arkansas to be in court due to fraudlent land dealings and traveled through Washington Arkansas during these trips. It would have been no problem to have a knife made there. I also believe that he had several knives made before he died. He was quite wealthy and liked knives.

Last year while visiting the Alamo they took the bowie that have on exhibit out to let me play with it in the curators office. The knife on exhibit is a Searles style bowie. They bought it. HOWEVER there is one knife that they have and that they know he had with him when he died. It is a English Shieffield bowie of approx 6 inch blade length. The knife itself was stolen in the early 1940's. The sheath remains. It is not on exhibit. This is all proven facts. They are quite sure he had a large knife with him. The lord only knows where it is.
Moore and Musso both have unique knives. Who knows. There is also another with the same claim. The Bowie #1. Again, who knows? Could be they were all there.

The only knife that can be traced back on paper to James Black is the Carrigan bowie. Everyone who has examined the Carrigan bowie also agrees the same person that made the Carrigan also made the Bowie #1 knife. The wood is a dead match on the black walnut grain. It came out of the same burled piece. The work also has the same little oddites [that people have personal to their own] of craftsmanship. No doubt it was the same person.
If you want to see any of the following bowies, The Bart Moore Bowie, The Carrigan Bowie and the Bowie #1 they are on exhibit at the Arkansas Territorial Restoration in Little Rock Arkansas. I have been luck enough to play with all of these as well as Musso's bowie.

The English cutlery business was not doing well and the popularity of the bowie knife gave them a much needed boost in sales. That is one of the reasons we have so many different styles of bowies. The english imports/sales.

The biggest mistake [and it is still going on] that Raymond Thourp made was miscalling what an Arkansas Toothpick was. He referred to it as a dagger. An Arkansas Toothpick was a bowie knife from Arkansas. It was never a dagger.
Sorry for the long speech and the bad spelling. I was sick the day we had spelling in school.
fisk
 
fisk

I defer to your knowledge on this subject and would appreciate a little more information if available.

Is it possible to determine the manufacture of the 6" Sheffield knife whose sheath is at the Alamo? Also, what data is available to tie it to Bowie? The possibility of Bowie having such a knife certainly exists due to his contacts and the availability of imported goods through the ports of New Orleans and Galveston.

The identification Thorp made to Arkansas Toothpick has always bothered me as well though I cannot pinpoint why. I had thought that such a term was as you described it just a large "Bowie" style from Arkansas deriving it's name from the lore surrounding the original Bowie being made by Black in Arkansas. Do you have any references to indicate the origin of the term?

Lastly, I envy your opportunities to have actually handled so many of the Bowies of historical significance. Who is the current owner of "Bowie #1"?

Thanks for your input.



------------------
A Patriot's Work Is Never Done--greetings from The Occupied South
 
The Arkansas Territorial Restoration website has a picture of "Bowie No. 1" at http://www.heritage.state.ar.us/atr/bowiep.html . It is a classic coffin-hilt clip-point with a 13 1/2" blade. Look around the site and you'll find discussions of the Arkansas toothpick/Bowie knife synonymous usage, the American Bladesmith Society, and other interesting material.
For the Rezin P. Bowie/Louisiana origins perspective, check out http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/4739/williamson.html .
Parenthetically, it should be noted that the Daughters of the Republic of Texas only rescued the Alamo from destruction by developers in 1905, so the provenance of many items in the Alamo museum is anecdotal, or dependent on oral histories supplied by (deservedly) proud donors in the 20th century.


[This message has been edited by Berkley (edited 03-26-2000).]
 
I'm fascinated by a turn that this discussion has taken. Back in March of 1999, I was taken severely to task by several members for referring to Raymond Thorpe's book on the Bowie knife, the general gist of the criticism being that the book was a good fairy tale but not good history. This was very sad for me, as it was one of the formative books in my interest in sharp, pointy things. Now, I see the book being referred to with something approaching approval by several folks in not one, but two, threads. Do my eyes deceive me? Or has poor old Raymond undergone a reconsideration?

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
FullerH

I do not know whether Thorp has had some reconsideration but I do know that the classic arguments for the Black involvement with Bowie are surfacing here as with most discussions of the knife's origin. Maybe, there are just more Thorp defenders around this time. In any event, such disagreements are the fuel for discovery and search for the truth or as close as you can get to it.

As furtherance of study on the topic, I offer the following resource list for any to use. Within this list are many points of view. Some of the sources are supportive of the Black/Bowie liason, some are not.

But believing we are all men of good faith here who just want to enhance the lore and history of hand steel here is a short personal reference list. It is certainly not complete.

A. JAMES BOWIE

1. Internet Public Library
Almanacs - Reference http://www.ipl.org/ref/RR/static/ref0500.html
Biographies - Reference http://www.ipl.org/ref/RR/static/ref1000.html
Encyclopedias - Reference http://www.ipl.org/ref/RR/static/ref2500.html

2. General Internet Search

*Handbook of Texas Online: James Bowie http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/BB/fbo45.html
*James Bowie (1796-1836) http://www.lsjunction.com/people/bowie.htm
*Remember The Alamo, by Amelia E. Barr http://users.erols.com/hardeman/lonestar/olbooks/barr/alamo.htm
(Full text account of the battle. Includes info. on Bowie's role
in the battle.)
*Texian History Resources: Biographical Resources http://lonestar.texas.net/~dwatson/blanco/texbio.htm
(Links to online biographies of Bowie and other famous Texans.)

3. Print Sources


*Three Roads to the Alamo: The Lives and Fortunes of David Crockett,
James Bowie, and William Barret Travis. By William C. Davis. 1999.
*Jim Bowie a Texas Legend : A Texas Legend. By Jean Flynn. Illustrated
by Buddy Mullan. 1980.
*James Bowie: Texas Fighting Man. By Clifford Hopewell. 1994.
*James Bowie and the Sandbar Fight. By James Batson. 1992.
*James Bowie. By C. L. Douglas. 1944.
*The Iron Mistress. By Paul Iselin Wellman. 1951. (Fictional Work.)

B. GENEALOGY OF THE BOWIE FAMILY


*The Bowies and Their Kindred: A Genealogical and Biographical
History. By Walter W. Bowie. Washington: Cromwell Brothers, 1899.



*Bowie Family Genealogy Forum http://genforum.genealogy.com/bowie/
*U.S. Veterans of the War With Mexico 1846-1848: A Guide to
Genealogical Research http://www.dmwv.org/mwvets/vgindex.htm

C. BOWIE KNIFE


1. General Internet Search

*The Bowie Knife's Origins By Bill Williamson http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/4739/williamson.html
*The Bowie Knife and the Arkansas Toothpick http://members.aol.com/rusty44905/bowie.html
*Jim Bowie and the Bowie Knife http://www.heritage.state.ar.us/atr/bowie.html
*Bowie knife by Jim Bowie http://www.linecamp.com/museums/americanwest/define_the_west/bowie_kni
fe/bowie_knife.html
*State Historical Markers: The First Bowie Knife http://enlou.com/markers/firstbowieknife.htm
*History of the Bowie Knife http://www.ualr.edu/~gkdover/bowie.html
*The Bowie Knife and Its Inventor http://www.history.rochester.edu/scientific_american/vol2/001/p1c4.htm
*John Cockrum v. The State. Austin, 1859 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/cockrum_v_st
ate.txt
(Info. on the punishment of using a bowie knife in a fight.)

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/search.html

2. Print Sources

*A Bowie Primer: Era/Man/Knife. By F. R. Winchell. 1997.
*American Knives: The First History and Collectors' Guide. By Harold
Leslie Peterson. 1958.
*The antique Bowie knife book. By Bill Adams
*Bowie Knife. By Raymond W. Thorp
*James Bowie and His Famous Knife. By S. Garst
*The Sheffield Bowie & pocket-knife makers, 1825-1925. By Richard
Washer
*Trail of the Bowie Knife. By S. Mims.


------------------
A Patriot's Work Is Never Done--greetings from The Occupied South
 
Truedge
Bubba, how you do go on!
Also look for Joe Musso's upcoming book on Bowie. He has uncovered/researched and found some undiscoved info on bowie to fill in a few blank spots.
Lots of research you have done. Sure appreciate it.
FullerH, you were just talking to the wrong bunch. Ain't I always told you, if you want to know something just ask me. Course I do remember my mom talking to my dad, she said "Wade, I don't think that boy is right in the head."
jf
 
To all: I for one have enjoyed the historical information and research each of you has put forth on this thread. Who knows, but maybe this subject should have it's own forum, judging from the knowledgable responses brought forth.
biggrin.gif


Rick
 
Ya'll please remember that this is discussion is about the History and Traditions of Texas and the Alamo - I'll thank ya'll to mind your tongues and take off your hats! And Sir... wherever the "Iron Mistress" is - she took a lot of Santa Anna's troops along with her!


------------------
knife Knuts are sharp people

Jonesy!
 
Ya'll please remember that this is discussion is about the History and Traditions of Texas and the Alamo - I'll thank ya'll to mind your tongues and take off your hats! And Sir... wherever the "Iron Mistress" is - she took a lot of Santa Anna's troops along with her!


------------------
knife Knuts are sharp people

Jonesy!
 
PhilL

Maybe he already did !!!!!

------------------
A Patriot's Work Is Never Done--greetings from The Occupied South
 
I didn't want to start a new thread, when this one was so full of Original Bowie info. I just finished reading KNIVES 2000 and there is an article by Bernard Levine. Actually, a pretty good article on the history of the Bowie from the Sandbar Fight. This knife was in Edwin Forrest possesion. This man was apparently a well known arms collector and knew J.Bowie quite well. William Williamson learned of the Bowie and cabinet that it was stored in, in the 1960's and in 1988 found out were the knife was and got it. A picture of the knife is in Knives 2000. A very plain looking knife and in my opinion very believable. Looked like an oversize kitchen knife.
 
Which knife are we looking for?

Is it the knife Bowie was wearing at the Alamo, the knife from the sanbar fight, or one of the others.

Its funny that people keep looking around for an original Bowie knife. Bowie was a reasonably weathy man; if he either used knives, or enjoyed them, he probably would have had a wide assortment of knives throughout his life. Why would he have only one???

As for the pattern (whatever we finally determine that to be), I am certain that we will find similar knives that pre-existed every knife that Bowie may have owned. The technology and means available at the time would not have allowed for a truely original design. There are very few original patterns available even today, especially on knives designed for use.



 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top