The Point

Ken,

I don't think I'd characterize stabbing as an entirely "easier" move than slashing. I spent several years fencing, and it isn't super-easy and instinctive to hit your (small) target with the point of a weapon. Takes much practice. Of course, that was with a much longer "weapon."

I would agree, though, that it's easier to hit a vital target with a stab than a slash, especially with those dang clothes. Not to say that a slash won't kill somebody very, very dead (think carotids.) And, is death the desired result? Yes, yes, if you draw your knife for defense, you should only do so if you would be equally justified in simply shooting your attacker, but what if he would be disarmed (think defanging the snake)? The knife could allow for mercy.

Now, I know no one is claiming this to be an either/or proposition (you can only slash or only stab), but I maintain that it's the flow of the confrontation that is the primary determining factor in how you will strike, be it slash, stab, or other.

I really find the circular movement of slashes to be more conducive for me to deliver multiple strikes (to my dummy) than thrusts.
 
The difficulty of thrusting with a knife, and hitting your target, from outside, seems to me to be very difficult. This is why my instincts tell me to slash or chop from outside. I have no background in fencing, and very little in knife combatives. I have had extensive training in grappling, however. So if I was to start sticking the guy in the throat and/or head, it would be once I have tied up and am either in a stand-up clinch or down on the ground. Either way, it seems I'd have to get in VERY tight on the guy for control. If he's unarmed, no problem. But if I have a knife vs. knife situation, it kind of sucks. I'd feel more comfotable throwing something in his face (sand, rag, anything) and then giving him a good hard chop with a Battle Mistress or tomahawk to whatever target presents itself.
 
The stab requires no target.
One only needs to puncture one of the cavities the body holds dear.
Unlike the long sword, with its tip movement amplified by length, the knife pokes with the same intuitive ease as the finger.
Skill?
Threading the finger/knife through the guard of the arms and hands might take some skill; and then again, how much skill does that require?
I think my eight year old can poke me with a finger.

-----

Some of the martial arts can multiply the force of a strong young man, and they have application on the battlefield.
Other martial arts compensate for old age, small size, lack of athleticism, and even lack of talent.
In most cases, though, martial arts should come with the warning label "For Educational and Entertainment Purposes Only."

Some people have a talent for fighting.
They study martial arts in order to build upon their talent.
These people look good, and their techniques look good, in the context of the dojo.
The dojo, however, represents a culture and, whether the paritcipants realize it or not, they follow patterns of behavior which make the techniques work.
When two different cultures meet each other in conlict the inappropriateness of heretofore highly esteemed techniques often comes as a surprise to one or both of the cultures.
The inadequacy of the techiniques comes as a surprise because the opposing culture does not subconsciously cooperate or adhere to pattern practiced in the dojo.
For this reason, some fighters, whether they think about it or not, practice several martial arts in order to break out of the patterns.
Martial study should have as its result the understanding of principles which in turn allow improvisation and spontaneity of movement.
Techniques, or muscle memory, represent the opposite of improvisation and spontaneity.
Ironically, the talented fighter possesses spontaneity and improvisation before he ever steps into the dojo.

Not everyone has talent, and, anyway, a more talented person always exists.
Therefore, we have weapons.
As they say, God created man and and Sam Colt made men equal.
The knife, when placed in the balance against talent, brings things back towards equal.
For a really untalented person, or someone like myself having a "stupid day," the stab might come easier than dancing with sharps.
"Poke 'em wit yer finger."
 
If a stab requires no target, then the slash doesn't either. This reminds me of the Paul Vunak statement, that with a knife, there are no bad targets. There are good targets, and better ones. I know I've been surprised at how easily a long and deep slash can be put into my training dummy.

You are correct that a long blade is more difficult to thrust accurately with than a short blade. But neither is entirely easy when the "target" is actively trying to stop you/get away.

Any idiot can stab at someone wildly.

Any idiot can slash at someone wildly.

The idiot's stabs are more likely to cause great harm.

The idiot's slashes are less likely to cause great harm (but they might.)

Stay away from the idiots.;)
 
98% of knife attacks come from domestic violence with knives from the kitchen.
Combat statistics from WWII and Korea, give no more than 2% of casualties from improvised weapons. 0.5%, if that, from edged weapons and some of those are self inflicted. I could give you the source if my files were not in storage and the ones I'm quoting/remember could be high estimates.

Add to the fact that there are not too many jedi knights, then, in the big picture, martial art training doesn't statistically warrant a mention.
Even in the military where H2H training should be important, its main benefit is for confidence building. A soldier's assault rifle is his personal defence.

This is not a dig at martial arts or knife fighting training, which when studied is facinating and to someone who has done it well may well help to ensure a long life, but just to give some perspective. Thats why my coments are geared towards the end result of slashing and stabbing and the consequenses. Don't ask me how to do it, as I'm no martial artist. Beware of a trapped rat.
 
I am sure those are valid statistics. However, I fail to see the connection between those statistics and the statement that martial arts training does little to help in the event of an attack. I understand that you are not attack martial arts or combatives. I still just don't get where you are coming from saying that for the most part they do not give you an advantage besides confidence building.
 
one2gofst,
Lesson one: tell five friends to pretend to stab you without warning anytime over a week and if they get their strike in first you will give them $10.
Lesson two: tell ten friends to shout a warning before their attack. Anytime, anywhere and give them $15.

Scelotaped paper batton as a knife substitute.

Tell us what happens.
 
So is Bill Bagwell right when he says to get yourself a 9-13" Bowie with a clip point and take fencing lessons? He says you can still chop and slash with one if need be. Then again, we can't all be running around daily with a 9-13" blade. Before I'd go there, I'd just pack a full size .45 auto. Jeez...now I'm really confused. :D
 
I agree, I am going to get cut or stabbed. But just because I am going to get cut or stabbed does not mean that training will not help me survive the attack. If you are trained well enough you react instinctively to an attack.
 
One statistic I failed to mention and cannot give, is what liklyhood anyone has of being attacked with someone with a knife. It happens, but is very rare. What level of ones resourses should one allocate to a form of defence that is unlikely to be needed, and has marginal benefit in too many cases if it was to happen? That is why people do martial arts stuff for other reasons.

Knife defensive arts have to be taken to a very high level to have real advantage. Even then with so many forms of attack, fist, knife, gun, grenade, it is of marginal benefit as all those skills diligently learnt may never be given the chance. Don't get me wrong it could well save your life, and in quite a few scenarios, but don't tell me it will save your life.

The military give only lip service to H2H because frankly there are better ways of using limited training resourses. Those that are any good in the forces do it mainly in their own time because they enjoy it.

If time was spent teaching people to see trouble before it happened it would be more effective. I do think more people should do some kind of extreme stress management training if only to stop them behaving like a rabbit cought in a cars headlaps. A martial art is a good one.
 
Greenjacket,

I totally agree that seeing trouble before it happens is a most necessary skill, and the one of all these skills that will see the most use.

But I think that skill in the knife can be learned relatively quickly, with the proper instruction. It's more like the technical skill of self-protection, like fixing a car, rather than an "art." What's the point of a system that takes five years of study to be useful? (of course, martial arts teach other valuable things besides self-defense, that's just the angle I'm talking about.)

Having said that, however, knife vs. (any other weapon) is very iffy at best. Skill and determination are the most important factors.


Ad, I hadn't heard Mr. Bagwell's suggestion before, but I disagree. As a former fencer, I benefited greatly from my fencing experience in knife training, but it was NOT any kind of substitute for actual knife training. Maybe like a sport judoist learning Gracie Jujitsu tweaked for the street, or something like that. Good foundation, but nothing more. And I really tire of bowies being compared to small civilian-type folders and fixed-blades (approx 4" blades.) It's just not the same category of knife. Just judging by length, how much longer would a bowie have to be before you'd call it a short sword? Not much, if at all, I'd say. It has cleaving ability that smaller blades just don't posess.
Now, if a bowie is appropriate to your life and the laws you are under, great. But if not, don't be too worried. Your awareness, skill, and determination will mean much more in a defensive situation than your tool (if comparing a bowie to a 4" folder.) And I would also carry a pistol before a bowie, same as you.
 
SM24, I completly agree with all your last points.

I know the main basic knife lines of attack and what they are meant to achieve. Once I even trained at making them work. I still know what I ought to do, but what I would actually do I haven't the faintest.

Out to you on this one.
 
I'm with you there, Greenjacket. I am fortunately completely inexperienced in actual weapon confrontations, and if lucky, will stay that way. I wrestle with that myself. I think training is my best preparation, but won't really know what I'm made of until someone makes me find out.
 
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