The quest for a sharp edge(Sequel to What causes an edge to roll?) New photos 3/26/14

[Squashfan]

***See post #24 for the latest photos.***

In my last thread, I learned much about over sharpening an edge. Also, the importance of right pressure + right abrasive = sharp. I feel like it is time for a new thread since my last question about burrs has been answered. A HUGE thank you to all who contributed to the last thread.

I still want to know more about Knifenut1013's comment:

My opinion to the OP, the steel is soft and you sharpened too to fine of a level for the hardness of the steel.

Anyway, I have a reasonably good edge on the knife right now. I believe the apex is slightly rounded because of a how little three finger sticky there is but it is not too bad. Still much better than any of my previous edges. The current edge has preformed really, really well. I have cut the zipties no problems several time now. I have picked up some damage on the edge but I believe this is from the edge hitting the backspacer/bolt action lock.

You guys wanted pic and here you go!

Dominant hand bevel. Sorry about the flash. My camera had a very hard time focusing on the bevel.


Weak hand bevel on the logoed side of the blade. You can see how I chewed up the shoulder.


All comments are welcome!

 

[Jason B.]

Now with pictures it's easier to tell what's going on. Your bevel looks thinned and a bit irregular with grinding. I would not recommend switching hands. Your original problems likely started when your edge became too thin.

 

[NRA]

There are two reasons to sharpen a knife. One, to get a sharp blade, and two, to sculpture steel.

One reason feeds your body, the other reason feeds your soul.

If you want to carve steak, freehand, and there you go.

If you want to command modules to stand and cast a mirror image at your feet, figure out what sharpening jig works best for you.

IMHO, no freehand system, can ever come close to a good sharpening jig system, in trained hands.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I also free hand and switch hand for each side, and that's the only way I can get good result. Keep practicing!

This edge reprofile is done 100% freehand:

 

[Squashfan]

Now with pictures it's easier to tell what's going on. Your bevel looks thinned and a bit irregular with grinding. I would not recommend switching hands. Your original problems likely started when your edge became too thin.

Well, if my bevels only look a bit uneven that is great. It is something I am trying to work on. The reason I switch hands is so I can keep my eyes on the intersection of stone and apex.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Well, if my bevels only look a bit uneven that is great. It is something I am trying to work on. The reason I switch hands is so I can keep my eyes on the intersection of stone and apex.

My 2c, do not try to sharpen by visual ques except maybe when starting to rebevel. Go by tactile sensation and maybe some audible feedback. I used to switch hands per side and a lot of folks do and get very good results (nice pics Chris!). For myself, I changed to doing all grinding with my primary hand and all pressure and rake control with my offhand - my consistency has become much better. I have a PDF copy of the Washboard manual on the current sale thread and it covers a lot of non-WB technique that might be helpful. Once you learn to operate by tactile sensation, your speed, angle accuracy and consistency will go through the ceiling. No guided system can match the convenience and versatility of freehanding.

Back to the original topic, I'd take a guess and say that any persistent edge rolling that isn't a result of lateral stress is likely caused by wire edges. I recently had to cut a stack of boxes free on the second tier of some storage racks - up on a ladder and reaching full extension with my left arm. Plastic banding was the thick semi translucent greenish stuff that I normally use a pair of shears to cut. First cut I made dead perpendicular to the banding and it popped right through - a quick look at the edge, was fine. Second cut was more of a reach, wound up more lateral and dragged a bit before it caught, had to use a lot more pressure to make the cut. Edge showed some light coming back at the contact spot and had to be touched up on my work WB. Nothing crazy, but considering this edge is about 24 inclusive it held up fine. This is good steel - Bark River Sandvik - so too fine an edge will certainly play a role if the steel is not robust. Have to play around and figure out what works for a given task, but cutting technique plays a role too.

 

[Squashfan]

Thanks to Chris for the encouraging pic. I have used a guided system and I WILL NOT go back to one. Freehanding so much easier and a LOT more fun. I guess could try grinding with my primary hand again. I tried it once a couple of weeks ago. Didn't try it for long though. I couldn't figure out how to hold my hand while doing the belly with the edge facing away from me. It felt very akward.

BTW, Should I read the whole washboard manual or just certain pages.? And thank you for making the manual available for free.

BTW, more about the straps. They are made of soft plastic, flat, about 0.25 wide and less than a 16th of an inch thick. I cut them just like Heavyhanded's first example. Straight through. No twisting or bending.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I also free hand and switch hand for each side, and that's the only way I can get good result. Keep practicing!
(...)

^^This. It's what I've tried to do as well, and it has gradually paid off.

Well, if my bevels only look a bit uneven that is great. It is something I am trying to work on. The reason I switch hands is so I can keep my eyes on the intersection of stone and apex.

This is my own take on it:

Per the results you attained, you've figured out how to get the apex both sharp and durable. That's the important thing, and the aesthetics of evenly-matched bevels on each side will come with more practice. I try to use both hands as well, at least while setting the initial bevels. My dominant hand (right) always tended to settle at a different angle for each of the toward' and 'away' strokes . I also felt it was more difficult to equalize pressure between strokes in each direction; I always noticed one side was being ground faster/slower than the other side (that makes it obvious, pressure isn't the same). For this reason, even though my non-dominant (left) hand didn't initially feel comfortable doing it, the visual feedback of seeing the edge contacting the stone was more helpful to me, while 'training' my left hand to get comfortable with the feel of the process. And, if the angle is off a bit, the obvious difference in bevel widths (or the grind marks on the shoulder) are the best indication of what needs to be 'fixed' in the hold or the stroke.

When it comes to the hands, I think this is literally most dependent on the individual. A lot depends on feel, and some of us also derive a lot from visual/audible cues. So, I don't criticize if one sharpener is getting great results doing things differently than I'd do. This is part of the beauty of sharpening, as I see it, because there's evidence of great results, by widely-ranging different techniques, all over the forum. I'm a big believer in figuring out what's comfortable for the hands, and taking advantage of the visual/audible cues available, all in the quest to train the hands to make the necessary adjustments. I prioritize comfort of the hands first, because attempting to force the hands to hold or stroke in a manner that's awkward to me is a fatigue-inducing edge killer. Incidentally, this is also why I've found value in switching hands, as it goes a long way toward sharing the workload.

I noticed some time back, that utilizing both hands also makes me utilize both sides of my brain as well (right brain controls left side motor skills, left brain controls right side motor skills). I always came away from an ambidextrous sharpening session feeling like my brain was more 'in the zone' and feeling mentally 'sharper' than when I started. Unanticipated consequence, but really an eye-opener for me. I'd long heard or read of the benefits of exercising each of the brain's hemispheres, but sort of assumed it was overblown to some degree. I don't feel that way anymore.


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

Thanks to Chris for the encouraging pic. I have used a guided system and I WILL NOT go back to one. Freehanding so much easier and a LOT more fun. I guess could try grinding with my primary hand again. I tried it once a couple of weeks ago. Didn't try it for long though. I couldn't figure out how to hold my hand while doing the belly with the edge facing away from me. It felt very akward.

BTW, Should I read the whole washboard manual or just certain pages.? And thank you for making the manual available for free.

BTW, more about the straps. They are made of soft plastic, flat, about 0.25 wide and less than a 16th of an inch thick. I cut them just like Heavyhanded's first example. Straight through. No twisting or bending.

Might as well read the whole thing, it takes longer to download than to read - is very much less involved than a comic book with similar format.

FWIW, I had tried to to switch to using only my dominant hand for both sides with limited success. Finally made a serious attempt when I had wrist surgery on my left hand and didn't want to take 5 weeks off. Took about an hour of attempts and everything clicked - haven't looked back, but that's me - whatever works is what's best.

 

[Squashfan]

On the subject of hands: I have found myself relying less and less on visual feedback. This is because I have to place my finger right over the place I want to grind. And you are right, David, it really helps to switch hands so that they don't get tired.


I have it downloaded the manual but am in the middle of a room cleaning session. Didn't start out wanting to clean but I couldn't find the handle to my (offbrand) swiffer duster! So I had to clean to find it.

 

[Squashfan]

Ok, read the whole manual. I have seen some of the things you mentioned while I was sharpening. Like the build up of compound on the cutting bevel. I will have to reread the manual later. It and the rest great advice from all of the members here are improving my sharpening over time.

EDIT: The uneven bevel is a result of trying to hold the same angle with both hands. Should I raise my weak hand or lower my strong hand?

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I actually used both sight and tactile. Started leaning more towards tactile after getting the Washboard.

Martin is right, tactile will improve speed & accuracy. Sight is not reliable, only as starting point when setting the angle, especially using Carl (jackknife) method:www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1029230-New-to-Sharpening-Need-help!

Martin, thanks for the WB. It still teaches me to listen everytime!

Edit to add: if rolling is the problem that the steel cannot support, increase the angle. Otherwise, erring to lower is preferable (always a point Martin stressed, withhis special preload wrist)

 

[Squashfan]

I have noticed that what I feel does change depending on where the stone hits the edge/shoulder. But I don't really know what I am looking for as far as feeling goes.
I am trying to correct my angles so I get an even bevel on both sides. In the case of the Gerber, I have discovered that I have actually increased the original angle by stropping. Just a couple of the degrees. This, and a better removal of the wire edge, have both contributed to a sharper, longer lasting edge.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I have noticed that what I feel does change depending on where the stone hits the edge/shoulder. But I don't really know what I am looking for as far as feeling goes.
I am trying to correct my angles so I get an even bevel on both sides. In the case of the Gerber, I have discovered that I have actually increased the original angle by stropping. Just a couple of the degrees. This, and a better removal of the wire edge, have both contributed to a sharper, longer lasting edge.

Keep practicing, the feel you're looking for will 'click' at some point. I describe it as a letting off of sensation - on a knife like your Gerber you'd like to feel that you're balanced just off the shoulder and working toward the apex. Grinding on the bevel itself should leave you with a bit less feedback until you reach the new cutting edge, at which point it will increase slightly when the edge itself starts to come into contact with the abrasive. Lowering the spine at this stage will (hopefully) result in an immediate sensation of the shoulder dragging on the stone, and you will be flat and true to a fairly high level of precision. This is why I like to "recalibrate" on the shoulder - by the time I feel the edge on the abrasive, I know I don't have any wiggle room behind and the bevels are very flat. Is a little different doing Scandi or convex in this manner, but only a little. The principles remain the same, only the specifics of the change in tactile sensation as you work across the bevel will be different. The more accurate you can be, the more precisely and reliably you can remove the burr/clean up the edge. Keep at it, you will be amazed at the level of precision you can achieve freehand.

One thing I believe I can see from your pics is that either the blade has a slight warp above the ricasso, or you're lowering your hand as you work the blade at the base. Also a bit of extra angle play resulting in added unevenness, especially visible in the second pic - left side of the blade- much more consistent into the belly and to the tip on both sides. Do as you've been, and keep the off hand fingertips right on top of the spot you're grinding, plan on spending a bit more time with a shorter stroke when hitting that region - it'll come around too. Another tip is to keep the knife close to your body when working the edge facing you, and further away when working the edge facing away from you - this (in addition to pre-loading the wrist) will work with the body's natural tendencies to keep the bevel more acute and less deviation of the angle.

Martin

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Squashfan,

Thank you for asking the question, that prompted good advices, some I can still learn from

To further encourage you, see this uneven bevel on both sides, that was done before learning from the masters here at M T & E. Had to convex it to cover the blemishes
I could get here, keep at it, you'll get there! :thumbup:

 

[Bob6794]

One thing that has helped me is watching someone who knows what their doing sharpen. On youtube there is jdavis882 and Neurman2010 which I think may be HeavyHanded if I remember correctly.

 

[Squashfan]

I am doing a little bit of reprofiling right now. I won't get to finish it tonight. But thanks to all the good advice, I feel like I am a better sharpener already. It looks like the bevels are little bit more even. I think the angle is still around 20dps but I guess I will have to live with that for now.

EDIT: Thanks for the picture, Chris. It does make me feel better. I know that someday I will be a really good sharpener but I expect it to take a couple or three years.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

That knife has been sold. The latest one I did on Resilience is much better. And yes, takes lots of practice, watching videos (knifenut aka mredgy81, heavyhanded aka neuman2010, and magnanimous, aka ducha123fly, all the aka is their YT username).

Keep at it, one stroke at a time. You'll get there sooner than you know.

 

[Squashfan]

Ok, I have another question. What do I do if I overgrind when setting the bevels and raise a large burr?

EDIT: I was going to ask you, Chris, what stones used to get that smooth (mirror?) finish in the first photo you posted. And how sharp were those knives?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Ok, I have another question. What do I do if I overgrind when setting the bevels and raise a large burr?

EDIT: I was going to ask you, Chris, what stones used to get that smooth (mirror?) finish in the first photo you posted. And how sharp were those knives?

Push the whole thing to one side, elevate the spine, and gently work it down edge leading - concentrate on small areas of the edge. If you try to use big sweeps you'll have a tough time making the entire burr the same size. Will likely push it over in some spots, or remove and make a new one in others, leaving you with a need to work it off in detail anyway.

Stop and observe often, once it gets nice and small, lower the spine down to the original working angle and very lightly grind it off edge leading.

When doing heavier work and needing to reset one side of the bevel more than another, I'll sometimes stop the heavy grinding side, flip, shrink the burr down to a smaller size. Flip back and keep working. My goal is always to create/finish any given step with the smallest, most uniform burr I can manage.

Martin