You sure about that? I've used a blade in H13 spec'd at RC 54, and it does fine for chopping.
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The riddle of steel
- Thread starter Cobalt
- Start date
You sure about that? I've used a blade in H13 spec'd at RC 54, and it does fine for chopping.
Cobalt
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Well you can use anything to chop. You can use 4140 steel which is also low in carbon. If it is good enough for you, then that is all that matters. It certainly has enough carbon for a knife steel. 0.45% is similar to 420HC so with proper HT it can do well. It will not match steels with more carbon in edge holding. That is my point. Are you saying that H13 with it's low carbon will outperform similar steels with more carbon in edge retention for cutting? Because if you are I would love to see the proof. H13 will not even have as good edge holding as 420HC and that one is at the bottom of the barrel in edge holding. Now as for toughness H13 has ton of it.
But my main point about carbon was that in a KNIFE going lower is good to a point and then you get to much a loss in the other good properties of the steel.
What kind of edge retention are you talking? Chopping or slicing. We can't just talk about general edge retention for cutting...it is specific to what you are cutting and how you are cutting. I agree that for slicing, etc it's low carbon content and lower RC will not make it great in edge retention. It will wear more quickly. With regards to chopping it will do fine and hold a nice edge for a long time, which is why I specified chopping. How long? I don't know. As well as 5160, S7, etc in my use.
As for proof, look at any number of axes and machetes that are hardened in the low 50's and will hold a great edge chopping. The blunting mechanism is very different than slicing.
All I'm saying is that blanket statements like it "it's not worth anything for cutting" can be misleading. It really depends on what you're cutting. It would be like me saying s110v is not worth anything for cutting because I had chopping in mind. On the other end of the spectrum though it is very useful.
As for proof, look at any number of axes and machetes that are hardened in the low 50's and will hold a great edge chopping. The blunting mechanism is very different than slicing.
All I'm saying is that blanket statements like it "it's not worth anything for cutting" can be misleading. It really depends on what you're cutting. It would be like me saying s110v is not worth anything for cutting because I had chopping in mind. On the other end of the spectrum though it is very useful.
Cobalt
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Cutting and chopping are two totally different things. When someone says cutting, they do not mean chopping. The term cutting and slicing is interchangeable.
Also as for machetes at low Rc I totally disagree with you there and my experience has not been that. Blades at a low Rc do take more edge damage than blades set at a higher Rc to a point. Just because most machetes chop soft fibrous vegetation doesn't mean they hold a better edge. When you hit hard wood or knots you will see how much damage a machete's edge can take and it is a lot more than a harder edge will take. I have used an ontario machete and an Esee Junglas both with the same basic steel and about 4Rc points apart on hard wood. The Junglas took no edge deformation at all, while the ontario's edge bent all over the place. Large blades are designed for all around use. But I agree with you that for strictly a chopper like an axe or Hatchet H13 would be good, but at that point, I would just go with S7 or S5.
But as I asked before please show me examples of your H13 knives doing anything tough. I would love to see an H13 knife used hard. There are tons of S7, 3V, INFI, 1095,, 1060, knives used hard daily. Where are all the H13 knives being used.
Cobalt,
With regards to my experiences with H13, I just cut (by which I mean chop) wood. In general, with my blades, I don't try to abuse them or use them for tough things. I'm not making any extravagant claims about them. Just that it's hard for me to notice a difference in cutting / chopping wood with S7, 5160, L6, 1065, etc. Most of the time I don't have to really sharpen until I hit dirty wood or a staple or something.
As for my experiences with machetes, I've used CS machetes in their 1055 on very hard wood with no damage...dead, small diameter pine limbs. The edge was fine afterwards. I've also chopped directly into knots with it. I've done the same with my Kershaw Camp 14 in 1065.
But that leads me an interesting point...lots of people have seen that blade fail. And many machetes and axes fail. But many don't. Which could mean that just because your machete failed doesn't mean it's bc of the RC difference. There could have been geometry differences....heat treat differences (as the price might indicate), etc. Experiences are great, and a great way to get info, but they have to be given context and evaluated. For every experience someone has on here, there is almost always an example of the opposite, which is where that evaluation and context comes in.
Lastly, re using an H13 blade hard. I don't really know what that means. I don't know what hard use means. It does fine for chopping wood though, again, not much difference from 5160 in my experience.
As for all the knives in H13...I don't know...it's not necessarily because it's not a good steel. Maybe it's not available in the desired stock thickness, maybe it was never marketed correctly, maybe it doesn't get good heat treats, maybe it's just not necessary because there are other good alternatives. Just because it's not used a lot though doesn't mean it can't be a fine blade for chopping wood.
With regards to my experiences with H13, I just cut (by which I mean chop) wood. In general, with my blades, I don't try to abuse them or use them for tough things. I'm not making any extravagant claims about them. Just that it's hard for me to notice a difference in cutting / chopping wood with S7, 5160, L6, 1065, etc. Most of the time I don't have to really sharpen until I hit dirty wood or a staple or something.
As for my experiences with machetes, I've used CS machetes in their 1055 on very hard wood with no damage...dead, small diameter pine limbs. The edge was fine afterwards. I've also chopped directly into knots with it. I've done the same with my Kershaw Camp 14 in 1065.
But that leads me an interesting point...lots of people have seen that blade fail. And many machetes and axes fail. But many don't. Which could mean that just because your machete failed doesn't mean it's bc of the RC difference. There could have been geometry differences....heat treat differences (as the price might indicate), etc. Experiences are great, and a great way to get info, but they have to be given context and evaluated. For every experience someone has on here, there is almost always an example of the opposite, which is where that evaluation and context comes in.
Lastly, re using an H13 blade hard. I don't really know what that means. I don't know what hard use means. It does fine for chopping wood though, again, not much difference from 5160 in my experience.
As for all the knives in H13...I don't know...it's not necessarily because it's not a good steel. Maybe it's not available in the desired stock thickness, maybe it was never marketed correctly, maybe it doesn't get good heat treats, maybe it's just not necessary because there are other good alternatives. Just because it's not used a lot though doesn't mean it can't be a fine blade for chopping wood.
Cobalt
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I agree with you that just because it is not used a lot does not mean it is not a good steel. Take a look at S5 for example. Tougher than both S7 and H13 with more carbon than H13 and it is very rare. Why? I don't know. Both are very tough steels. Why do knife makers not use them more? Maybe a question we should put to them. Why are S5 and H13 not used more often. S5 especially as it is possibly the toughest steel available to my knowledge. My guess is that edge holding for anything other than chopping is very poor and that is why you just don't see those steels used. But I could be wrong. who knows. What we do know is that in general when you lower carbon content, you get tougher, but at a certain point you do loose edge holding and the ability to harden a steel to a useable Rc point. So at a certain lower carbon point, the steel just does not hold an edge well. I have had this issue with 420HC and 420. Both very low carbon with terrible edge holding in any form.