What you are doing is taking a perfectly legitimate position in an interesting debate and turning it into a spitting match. Those are only interesting for those doing the spitting, the rest of us find them tedious.
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The right handle for a poll-less axe.
- Thread starter FortyTwoBlades
- Start date
What you are doing is taking a perfectly legitimate position in an interesting debate and turning it into a spitting match. Those are only interesting for those doing the spitting, the rest of us find them tedious.
Woodcraft,
What is your point? People post pictures of axes they hafted from off the shelf handles all the time. 42 is testing a concept he has been studying for sometime and made a nice handle to boot. I don't see how it is a puff piece! Perhaps if you refined and expanded your critique, a useful discussion might ensue, but if you simply snipe at 42's work as you've been doing, he seems justified in ignoring you.
What is your point? People post pictures of axes they hafted from off the shelf handles all the time. 42 is testing a concept he has been studying for sometime and made a nice handle to boot. I don't see how it is a puff piece! Perhaps if you refined and expanded your critique, a useful discussion might ensue, but if you simply snipe at 42's work as you've been doing, he seems justified in ignoring you.
We've got to back off on this stuff! Disagreements and arguments come with any gathering of opinions but angry accusation and emotional indignation don't. We're on here because we enjoy it and the majority of us actually seek to use the tools rather than relegate them as wall hangers. Inevitably there are folks that want to believe they can make a silk purse from a sow's ear. So what! Let them have a go at and cheer them on. Guaranteed we'll learn something from it.
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Even for those who wish to steer clear of poll-less axes, I hope that this information at least proves useful for folks replacing the handles on the axes they do favor. This particular example just happens to represent an extreme of the kind of offset work that optimizes the balance of the axe. Those who, for instance, are of the belief that a single-bitted axe can never balance as well as a double bit might be able to use this kind of work to bring those single bits in their possession up to a level of unified balance that's on par with double bits. The next time you fit a handle to a head, find and mark the center of gravity with a little tape and try to line the handle up so it's pointing right at it. I think you'll find the results quite pleasing.
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Sniping? No. 42 has ad nauseam claimed his large bladed polless axe can be made on par with the balanced poll axe. I am asking him to back these claims. He has explained, argued and spun webs about why he is correct. He has begged to be proven incorrect on paper. I have lurked and remained silent. Now he has the handle made on the axe. Now he should be jumping to prove himself correct. You can call it sniping if you want. I see it differently. I see someone who has almost arrogantly made claims contrary to what is historically known. I see someone who has made claims contrary to what hands on experience has show. Why would he put a plum line on a german axe but not the one he just built? Why wouldnt he compare it to the axes he claims it is just as good as? I am not attacking his craftsmanship. I am questioning his theory and his unwillingness to provide evidence for his claims.
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Here's a plumb line along the main length of the handle. Just as projected in the digital drafting phase. This is why it's able to balance dead horizontal. 
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Here's a plumb line along the main length of the handle. Just as projected in the digital drafting phase. This is why it's able to balance dead horizontal.
I thought you were ignoring me
. Have you shown a pic of it balancing dead horizontal? Office chair or corner of table?
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When I originally mapped this handle out I made the mistake of using a digital trace of the factory handle as the basis, and so the handle towards the butt end is actually narrower than it has to be. Working on a 34" (sawed the end grain checking off the board) handle now with a bit of a fore/aft knob to it now and ought to be able to get the fit a little better this time around. The nice thing with slip fit handles is I can easily swap them out, so I'll keep using the 36" one as a beater in situations where the handle might be exposed to a bit of a battering or getting otherwise nastied up.
I understand what you're doing but I cannot appreciate why. Yer ordinary stiff doesn't want to go to great conniptions just to have an axe that sort-of-behaves like everyone else's but looks radically different. What do factory-made Rinaldi handles, and assembled hangs, look like? That may tell you, me and us more than anything what their axes are meant for.
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No conniptions necessary. I'll be offering cut-to-shape handle blanks for folks that want to go this route so they don't need to do the figuring, just the fitting. Also handle blanks for other axes on request, using the method I've worked out for doing that analysis and templating. Not looking to make a big operation out of it or anything, but I have access to the tools, materials, and design know-how so I may as well make it available to folks if they want to take advantage of it.
The stock Rinaldi handles have some slight curve to them where you can see the attempt has been made to put in a small amount of adjustment, but it's much more economical to make straighter handles because you don't need so wide of a starting board. Straight handles in these cases are usually a case of economy or convenience (if making them ones' self) rather than an idealized handle shape. You can see photographs of the factory handles here. Now, as to why still opt for those heads, it's because the steel and heat treatment is superb, the bit geometries and profiles represent different stylistic and methodological approaches than are otherwise commonly available at market, and they give true axe design and function with a slip-fit eye, which is also a feature otherwise not found on the American market at present. More options. And personally I find them pleasant to use.
I looked at your link to what are obviously 'straight-handled' axes and I see they even offer an out-of-kilter 'racing axe'. I dunno about this. Maybe they use them for slicing through fishing net ropes, chopping up large fish or pruning olive trees but I honestly can't see 'going to town' on a large hemlock, oak or elm with something like this.
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They're pretty easy to compensate for in use because the leverage from the off-axis hand is still pretty small even at its most severe, and the handles tend to have a decent amount of width to them that allows you to provide the pretty minimal amount of counter-leverage needed to keep them oriented as you desire them at the start of the stroke. It took me a little mental "exploration" to gain a feel for how they behaved and wanted to be used, but the adjustment didn't take long. Once outfitted with an offset neck handle, however, they don't handle any different from a polled axe. Perhaps better, even, simply because many of those polled axes aren't as finely tuned as they could be. If you've ever used a Fiskars you've already used such an axe, though they're not as off-axis as some of these deeper-bitted examples.
The racing axe model is the one that I outfitted with a "" wedged curved handle.
The racing axe model is the one that I outfitted with a "" wedged curved handle.
I apologise if I mischaracterized your behavior, possibly I didn't see previous interactions critical to understanding this threads dynamic. Either way, 42 is a good guy, just maybe younger, more energetic, and more enthusiastic than many of us, and I trust he will come to his own conclusions in his own way, but maybe faster given well-constructed dialogue with those of opposing viewpoints. He really is curious about the most obscure things, implement wise, and I enjoy seeing his research and experiments. His service to us pattern scythes alone is enough bona fide token for me, by itself.
I think there is room for variety in axes. What works best depends on conditions. Our conditions and usage now are arguably often closer to Europe than the golden age of North American logging, for example.
The days of going to town on large trees with an axe are probably mostly past. I spend a good bit of time felling and limbing post sized cedars and black locusts. One of the best axes I have for that is a really thin cheeked jersey. I don't see why some of the European axes would not be useful in similar application. Before it comes up, let me say that it is by choice, for excercise, primarily, but the limbing actually seems to go pretty fast with an axe and just as safely if not more so than a chainsaw. My son could limb a tree with the best even when he was too young to even consider a chainsaw!
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I would disagree that it is closer to European use in the past, (it has become a splitting only tool for the vast majority in my opinion) ,but I think that is irrelevant. The North American axe was improvement over improvement on that old style. As you said what works best is what we ended up with. Not now of course. Because hardware stores sell axes that look like old patterns but are modified to just be better wood splitters. Because thats what people want. I agree there is room for any kind of axe you want to chop with throw whatever. I love axes. But the claims made concern me. That axe is not on par with the American felling axe. Not on hardwood. Not on softwood. Not big or small. To make those claims is counter to what is known.
I have only seen ONE "review" with that axe in someone elses hands other than the salesman(Benjamin) . It was said it was not ideal for large hard wood. It was said it did great limbing I believe. And it suffered a good size chip and some other edge damage on a small oak.
Benjamin himself said in that forum that the axe was good for mid to small trees and the thin edge tends to chip at first then as you grind it the edge takes a stronger angle. I am not going to jump to conclusions from only one review but I will say it does not support the spirit of what Benjamin has claimed elsewhere. I feel a side by side comparison is in order.
Woodcraft,
I see where you are coming from now, I think. Good splitters are sort of a speciality, and I agree that many new axes are optimized for that and not much else. Of course, a little grinding and sharpening is all it takes to change that. I don't split a lot of firewood, just to be upfront about that, but I do clear trees, prune limbs, "make" posts, and cut small medium sized wood for camping, smoking/cooking food, etc. Unlike my granddaddy, I'm not taking down huge trees, especially hardwoods, for shipping.
In my post to 300 six, I talked about one use I have for axes and a thin bitted axe doing the job well. The edge is indeed a bit fragile when knife sharp, but I look at that as a compromise, as the laws of nature are immutable mostly, but a compromise worthwhile in terms of utility in some cases.
Anyway, I've never gotten the impression that 42 is peddling snake oil! I think he is simply excited about something different and has gone to some trouble to supply us with a view into his experiences with it. As before, I may have missed something.
On a lighter note, 42 is the foremost proponent of a view similar to yours when it comes to scythes. For a while he was literally the voice in the wilderness defending us pattern scythes against sometimes outrageous claims made by purveyors of European ones.
I see where you are coming from now, I think. Good splitters are sort of a speciality, and I agree that many new axes are optimized for that and not much else. Of course, a little grinding and sharpening is all it takes to change that. I don't split a lot of firewood, just to be upfront about that, but I do clear trees, prune limbs, "make" posts, and cut small medium sized wood for camping, smoking/cooking food, etc. Unlike my granddaddy, I'm not taking down huge trees, especially hardwoods, for shipping.
In my post to 300 six, I talked about one use I have for axes and a thin bitted axe doing the job well. The edge is indeed a bit fragile when knife sharp, but I look at that as a compromise, as the laws of nature are immutable mostly, but a compromise worthwhile in terms of utility in some cases.
Anyway, I've never gotten the impression that 42 is peddling snake oil! I think he is simply excited about something different and has gone to some trouble to supply us with a view into his experiences with it. As before, I may have missed something.
On a lighter note, 42 is the foremost proponent of a view similar to yours when it comes to scythes. For a while he was literally the voice in the wilderness defending us pattern scythes against sometimes outrageous claims made by purveyors of European ones.
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That thin bitted Jersey axe if older was set up for softwood. Hence the "fragile edge" on black locust.
Old American axes were actually designed and manufactured for the job they were intended. The Connecticut is another pattern that was intended for softwood but works fine for both.Snake oil may be harsh. I will leave it at making unproven claims of equality with another product that has a well established reputation.
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The particular axe in question was purposefully ground pretty thin and the "small oak" it was used on didn't give the axe any trouble until the user hit was appeared to be a mineral-stained region, which are specifically noted to occur commonly in oaks and are known to damage the edges on cutting tools. He actually noted in his review that he could feel that the wood was harder there.
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Though direct linking to other forums is frowned upon, if anyone is interested in viewing the review, just do a search for "Rinaldi Trento, Use and Thoughts" and it's the first result.
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Sure. He said it was not ideal on large hardwood trees. As I said. The exact test you have been avoiding, lol. The said large hardwood was hollow. It chipped and was damaged, (on a small live oak) first review outside your hands I have seen. (I have found another person who has used them. I will link the article into a thread they wrote about these type axes.) Not conclusive but still a result. How it chipped, inconclusive , could have been stress from tbe small tree moving around while the blade was stuck. These thin flat blades overpenitrate Benjamin. They lack the proper design to release and throw a chip .Benjamin. As I said, being ever so polite Benjamin, untill you do some side by side comparison and a lot more work gathering data, these axes are not on par with the american felling axe. They are just not as good chopping, felling or splitting. Have a nice day, Benjamin
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