The search for the perfect Bushcraft Knife - My story...

Talfuchre said:
One thing that drives me insane about Scandi knives are when the maker cannot get the grind right. Scandi grinds are supposed to be zero ground. Not convexed slightly and not have a micro bevel. Many makers can't get a scandi sharp quickly so they cheat with micro bevel - or they don't know how to do a proper zero grind - so they convex the edge slightly. The Spyderco, even though it was said to be a zero grind was actually slightly convex ground knife.

TF
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This is something that bugs me about knives in general.

First same here the Spyderco I have is convex. Now the edge is very thin and cuts well because the highest point in the grind on mine is in the middle of the scandi bevel, but it convex.

But what I was getting at is it really bugs me to get a knife that is labeled as "Convex" or "Scandi" and find it has a secondary bevel on it.

I have no problem with a secondary bevel on either but I'd rather know that up front. I personally would rather have a zero convex or scandi and then put however much secondary might be needed on there for what I want to use it for myself.

My second pet peeve is when knifemakers have some limitation in their skills, or want to cut corners to make a blade faster and then they act like it's some essential part of the design.

I've seen blades where they cut out thumb grooves, or made the design easier to grind, or so it uses less steel, or requires further steps yet they are charging the same amount as when they produced more highly finished knives.

For instance I love the forge finish on a blade. But I refuse to pay 250 or more for a forge finish blade when it takes less work. One thing I see in custom knives these days is there seems to be no correlation between the amount of hand work that goes into a blade and the price.

Another is skeletonized blades. If you compare the price of a skeletonized blade with one with a handle it's obvious they are making more money on the skeletonized ones. The price should reflect the amount of work that goes into it.
 
Beautifully written, sweet collection, and of course the sheaths are always top-notch and something for us beginners/amateurs to aspire to! You've done a great job of showing us (if I may paraphrase Jeff Cooper) that any knife will do, if you will.

The rest is all candy sprinkles for our soul!
 
I could never write something like that with such a calm and satisfying ending. Thanks for posting.
 
Talfuchre said:
One thing that drives me insane about Scandi knives are when the maker cannot get the grind right. Scandi grinds are supposed to be zero ground. Not convexed slightly and not have a micro bevel. Many makers can't get a scandi sharp quickly so they cheat with micro bevel - or they don't know how to do a proper zero grind - so they convex the edge slightly.
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Tal,

You seem to be quite certain in your pronouncement that scandis are supposed to be zero ground. Can you tell me how you came to this conclusion so authoritatively? And does it apply specifically to Finnish puukkos?

I'm not being contrary. I ask because I have an outstanding puukko, made by Joonas Kallioniemi, that has a microbevel. I've corresponded with him pretty extensively about sharpening and the proper edge for a puukko, and he says that a microbevel is traditionally added for durability. I'm inclined to believe him because bladesmithing is a purview of the Finnish Ministry of Education. Joonas learned his craft at the Finnish equivalent of a vocational school. I'm sure his ideas on blade and edge geometry were taught according to established criteria. And since his knifemaking skills are at a high level, I know he doesn't sharpen his knives with a microbevel because it's easier. So since he says to use a microbevel, I definitely listen.
 
kamagong said:
Tal,

You seem to be quite certain in your pronouncement that scandis are supposed to be zero ground. Can you tell me how you came to this conclusion so authoritatively? And does it apply specifically to Finnish puukkos?

I'm not being contrary. I ask because I have an outstanding puukko, made by Joonas Kallioniemi, that has a microbevel. I've corresponded with him pretty extensively about sharpening and the proper edge for a puukko, and he says that a microbevel is traditionally added for durability. I'm inclined to believe him because bladesmithing is a purview of the Finnish Ministry of Education. Joonas learned his craft at the Finnish equivalent of a vocational school. I'm sure his ideas on blade and edge geometry were taught according to established criteria. And since his knifemaking skills are at a high level, I know he doesn't sharpen his knives with a microbevel because it's easier. So since he says to use a microbevel, I definitely listen.
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I thought I'd also read where most traditional Pukko's had a small secondary micro bevel !
 
I don't know much about Scandi ground knives as I have only gotten more interested in them over the past year or so. But in my limited findings, it seems that most "Scandi" blades do have a micro bevel. And the edges are a lot tougher than true zero ground ones that I have used.
 
Talfuchre said:
One thing that drives me insane about Scandi knives are when the maker cannot get the grind right. Scandi grinds are supposed to be zero ground. Not convexed slightly and not have a micro bevel. Many makers can't get a scandi sharp quickly so they cheat with micro bevel - or they don't know how to do a proper zero grind - so they convex the edge slightly. The Spyderco, even though it was said to be a zero grind was actually slightly convex ground knife.
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This doesnt' really apply to the micro bevel, but might supply a different perspective on the convex thing.

Just so that you see all sides of this, I think some makers are not aware of what is going on. I will explain what I mean.

Let’s assume the grind is even to the center line. If it is not, you are screwed right off the bat :)

Next, is the finish level. The belts used on knife making grinders are some kind of backing (with varying levels of stiffness) and some sort of abrasive. The coarser the abrisve, the larger the chunks of stuff attached to the belt. When you are at fairly course grits, there really is no worry of anything bad happening.

As you get finer and finer grits, the abrasive gets smaller, and the cutting edge is now getting closer and closer to the actual material of the belt. There is a point (I know where it is at for me) when you are playing with fire. Go too fine, and you risk cutting the belt, having it zing across the room and scare the crap out of you, at the same time, putting a nice gouge in your edge. Or so I have heard……:)

There is all sorts of pressure to get the edge to a finer finish. Knowing that you can not take it any further with traditional abrasives. Most makers could not charge enough for a hand applied mirror finish, and I can’t blame them there. So, I have seen others look to other means…..mostly cork belts. These belts have what look like large chunks of abrasive material on them, but it is cork with abrasive material applied.

They work great, and they can be used without fear to a very fine grit. But here is the rub. Cork is deformable. Use them more than a touch, and things will end up not flat. Most makers don’t understand that. They say the platen is perfeclty flat, and so is the belt. Obviously they are missing the fact that cork is deformable and they putting a pressure gradient across its surface.

So, if you stick with a bit coarser finish, flatness is much easier to achieve. But then all sorts of other things creep in. How do you explain “less finisihed” is better? Shiny mirror edges look better in pictures, or perhaps that is “what the customer wants” even though they may not understand the trade offs they are getting. Or perphaps the maker does not understand what is happening with cork belts.

All I am saying is that a maker may be trying to do something good, and not realizing that there is a down side. I think that difference between a maker that never gets out of his shop and has his customers do his testing, versus someone who makes them because they use them themselves.

I am curious what others think about all this surface finish stuff.


B
 
It's time to get rid of the zero edge mith. There is really no rule about putting them or not: every maker has his own preferences due to his own experiences.

Just to put some names in, speaking of short blades:

finnish smith Pasi Hurttila put on his blades a flat grind with microbevel,
finnish smith Ilkka Seikku puts a concave grind (circular wheel) and adds a microbevel,
finnish bladesmith Pekka Tuominen puts flat zero grind,
finnish bladesmith Jukka Hankala puts flat grind with microbevel,
finnish smith Antti Mäkinen puts a concave grind with tiny microbevel,
finnish/saami smith Toivo Jaaranen puts concave grind with convex edge,
finnish/swedish smith Kay Vikström puts flat grinf with tiny convex edge,
swedish smith Julius Pettersson puts flat zero gind,
swedish smith Gunnar Bergström puts flat zero grind,
swedish smith Leif Carlsson puts flat zerogrind,
swedish blademaker Maihkel Eklund puts flay grind with microbevel,
swedish blademaker Robert Mattsson puts flat zero grind,
swedish smith Göran Enokksson puts concave grind with mircobevel,
swedish smith Svante Djärv puts flat grind with convex edge,
norse/danish bladesmithsmith Steen Nielsen puts flat grind with microbevel,
norse bladesmith Arne Skogli puts a lightly concave grind with microbevel.
danish bladesmith Poul Strande puts flat grind with microbevel,
danish bladesmith Aage Frederiksen puts a full convex grind...

Now tell me the rule ;)
 
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Tal,

Reading you post was spooky because I went down the same road as you (including the time spent to try and master the Aurora) and I bought pretty much every knife you mentioned, including multiple iterations.

Have you considered the Skookum Bush Tool by Rod Garcia?
 
im on the same road right now lol. CLW how do you like the Skookum? i have one on the way should be here tommorow from Rod:thumbup:
 
Brian Andrews said:
This doesnt' really apply to the micro bevel, but might supply a different perspective on the convex thing.

Just so that you see all sides of this, I think some makers are not aware of what is going on. I will explain what I mean.

Let’s assume the grind is even to the center line. If it is not, you are screwed right off the bat :)

Next, is the finish level. The belts used on knife making grinders are some kind of backing (with varying levels of stiffness) and some sort of abrasive. The coarser the abrisve, the larger the chunks of stuff attached to the belt. When you are at fairly course grits, there really is no worry of anything bad happening.

As you get finer and finer grits, the abrasive gets smaller, and the cutting edge is now getting closer and closer to the actual material of the belt. There is a point (I know where it is at for me) when you are playing with fire. Go too fine, and you risk cutting the belt, having it zing across the room and scare the crap out of you, at the same time, putting a nice gouge in your edge. Or so I have heard……:)

There is all sorts of pressure to get the edge to a finer finish. Knowing that you can not take it any further with traditional abrasives. Most makers could not charge enough for a hand applied mirror finish, and I can’t blame them there. So, I have seen others look to other means…..mostly cork belts. These belts have what look like large chunks of abrasive material on them, but it is cork with abrasive material applied.

They work great, and they can be used without fear to a very fine grit. But here is the rub. Cork is deformable. Use them more than a touch, and things will end up not flat. Most makers don’t understand that. They say the platen is perfeclty flat, and so is the belt. Obviously they are missing the fact that cork is deformable and they putting a pressure gradient across its surface.

So, if you stick with a bit coarser finish, flatness is much easier to achieve. But then all sorts of other things creep in. How do you explain “less finisihed” is better? Shiny mirror edges look better in pictures, or perhaps that is “what the customer wants” even though they may not understand the trade offs they are getting. Or perphaps the maker does not understand what is happening with cork belts.

All I am saying is that a maker may be trying to do something good, and not realizing that there is a down side. I think that difference between a maker that never gets out of his shop and has his customers do his testing, versus someone who makes them because they use them themselves.

I am curious what others think about all this surface finish stuff.


B
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Great post. I just bought a bunch of cork belts and am about to start using them up to the higher grits. I never thought about what you said. Thanks.
 
ivan51 said:
im on the same road right now lol. CLW how do you like the Skookum? i have one on the way should be here tommorow from Rod:thumbup:
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You should love it. On the bigger side, but doesn't know how to quit cutting. Even if you decide it isn't for you, there'll be people lined-up ready to buy it.
 
Brian,

I think you make a great point - and I think this is likely what happened to my Spyderco. However, I know Cody (Adventure Sworn) finishes his blades with cork - and his blades are zero ground properly.

I think there may be another issue at play with the Spyderco.... I am not sure what - and I love your input. You know your stuff.

TF
 
I think we've all been in this boat looking for the perfect blade, and thats what makes it fun! Thanks!
 
Great story.
Now multiply it by folders, machetes, large blades, and axes - and that describes most of us here :)

Some great knives and great experiences!
 
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