"The Tip went down"

AVigil

Adam Vigil working the grind
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I was reading online on another forum and a member said he was heat treating his blade and had the back clay coated. After quenching he noticed the "tip of the blade went down".

No one replied to his question.

So why does the tip of the blade go down on quenching sometimes? I remember Ed Folwer mentioning that in one of his talks but I have not found the reason why.
 
I had the tip, well actually about a third of my blade sag like a tired old man when I quenched it. I didn't know it at the time, but you CAN not successfully quench W2 in canola. It needs a fast oil like Parks 50. So, why does the tip go down, probably because the blade is the wrong type steel for the quench you are using.
 
The old adage used to be that with a single edge blade, a water quench causes curve, an oil quench causes recurve. I saw this happen a number of times when I was heat treating in a forge (oil quench) but have not experienced it much now that I am heat treating with an oven, which may be an indication that it is related to temp control/uniformity prior to the quench.
 
the curve (I think it is called Sori, but I do not do Japanese so I may be wrong) comes from the change in volume of different steel phases in relation to the temperature of surrounding sections. If you look at slow motion video of a Katana being quenched in water you will see it writhes like a wounded snake. The Sori comes from when the edge freezes in a higher volume phase than the spine. If you change the quench timing you affect the whole thing

-Page
 
I'm sorry to keep answering a question that has already been answered a couple different ways, but I wasn't able to follow the replies in a way that specifically explained the exact weirdness you're seeing.

Hard steel (martensite) occupies a larger volume than the soft austenitic phase the steel is in when it is quenched. So, during the start of the quench, the edge (being thinner) hardens first and grows (because martensite occupies a larger volume), stretching the hot soft austenitic spine with it. Then the spine hardens but the already hard edge doesn't yield as the spine grows, so the spine bends the blade tip down as the spine transforms into martensite and grows.
 
I'll post a detailed explanation tonight.

If has to do with the structures, the temperatures, and the speed of the quenchant.
 
Thanks Stacy and thanks to the rest of you guys as well.

What a lucky time we live in when we can get answers faster then any time in human history :)
 
OK, I'm back.

First , here is a great animated graphic of yaki-ire. The links are in the first post.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?92559-Yaki-ire-quenching-animated-graphicsHere it the detailed explanation in metallurgical terms:

The down curve is caused by the austenite cooling and thus contracting a bit, plus the pearlite expanding. The upward curve is caused by the expansion is in the martensitic edge as the super-cooled austenite converts to a larger spaced martensite.. The interrupted quench is to prevent the edge from cooling too fast and becoming too brittle martensite before the blade is ready for that. It is also a slight auto-tempering process. The violent force applied to the blade during the martensitic conversion is what breaks many blades with the dreaded "PING".

I use parks 50 and forge in the sori on most blades. If you are going for a hamon, and want all the ashi and clouds, then water is your friend.....but it also is your enemy.

OK, I'll give you the longer explanation.
There are three structures involved in a blade of differential hardness.
Austenite is a compact and rubbery structure.
Pearlite is a larger structure that is soft.
Martensite is a much larger structure and is hard....and brittle when just formed.

Steel changes into austenite as it crosses Ac1 and when it reaches Ac3 it is fully austenitic. As it cools down past Ar1, it will convert to pearlite if cooled slow enough to enter the pearlite range....or stay as austenite if it misses the pearlite nose. As the super-cooled austenite continues down until it hits the Ms, the austenite suddenly converts into martensite.

Now, the austenitic blade with the clay coated back is fully heated to Ac3. It is all austenite, even under the clay. We quench it in a media that will drop the edge to below the pearlite nose around 1000F, and thus keep the edge austenite at this point. At the same time, the coated spine cools a bit slower, and goes into pearlite, which expands a bit. The larger pearlite pushes the soft austenite edge , causing a downward curve. All is happy at this point with a soft pearlite spine and a rubbery austenite edge. Then the martensitic conversion point is hit by the edge, and the edge suddenly gets a lot larger ( relatively), causing a quick push on the soft pearlite ,resulting is a sudden upward curve. This is happening at the same time as the edge becomes hard and brittle. If it all happens at exactly the right time and speed, you get a nice sori and a good hamon. If it happens a few milliseconds out of sync, you get a nice sori and a broken or cracked blade.

All that is fine for a fast water quench, but with oil, which is slower, the martensitic edge is auto tempered and the whole blade just stretches out a bit when the conversion happens.The oil also is slower, and the pearlite gets a bit cooler, and thus stiffer, when the conversion happens. This only slightly reverses the downward curve. Most times you never know that it curved down and then back up to straight or near straight. It is only really an observable feature on longer and thinner blades. I usually figure twice the up curve for every amount down in a water quench, and about 80% up from the down on an oil quench.
 
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Thanks Stacy,

I can not see your links.

That is very interesting. If the tip does not come all the way back up does the heat treating need to be redone?

I would love to see a slow motion video of this happening. Anyone know of one online?
 
A way to help avoid the "Tip Dip" is to quench your blade spine first. This will not effect the edge hardness at all. If you are clay coating, scrape the spine clean prior to the quench.
 
A way to help avoid the "Tip Dip" is to quench your blade spine first. This will not effect the edge hardness at all. If you are clay coating, scrape the spine clean prior to the quench.


Rick,

I thought it was the clay during the quench that gave the differential hardness?
 
Yes it is... not sure I'm following you... or explaining myself properly. Giving the spine a head start on the conversion can help stabilize the tip. Kevin Cashen suggested that to me 3yrs ago and it really helped minimize tip dip. You can also forge in a pre-bend to compensate for it.
 
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Rick,

I was asking about you saying "scrap the spine prior to the quench"
 
Yes, exposing the surface of the spine and quenching it down, allows it to harden enough to support the tip during all the expansion. That little head start goes a long way.
 
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OK, I'm back.

First , here is a great animated graphic of yaki-ire. The links are in the first post.

This is very interesting. I'm a structural engineer so I've studied differential cooling, residual stresses and those affects on shape with respect to structural steel of course. I had a simplistic understanding of the process based on this, but metallurgically it is more complicated than that. I first did not understand how there could be a reverse curve but it appears that there is a metallurgical explanation for that behavior.
 
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