The Twilight of Linerless Knives?

Carlos

Carlos

Joined
Jul 9, 2000
Messages
1,654
I'm starting to wonder if linerless designs have any future. :(

The higher-end production knife market has almost universally favoured liners in steel or titanium for its epoxy laminate handles, not as an evolution, but as a continuation of brass-lined traditional construction. Spyderco is the exception, perhaps pushing too far early on in its earliest generations of G10 handles, then setting the standard IMO with custom-spec G10 and nested locking liners and skeletonized liner designs (where required).

When the Dodo came out it was an epiphany. Linerless G10 achieving a High Heavy Duty (MBC) lock strength with the ball-bearing lock. A Para-Military built the same way would have been my dream knife. The Dodo now seems to be an extinct evolutionay dead end, and laminated handle design seems to have regressed (allow me the editorial cant) permanently into dual-linered designs, whether full or nested. The sole exception lies in the beautifully engineered UK Penkife (granting I haven't seen anything in development that hasn't been shown here).

I've been here through the years of complaints and calls for dual-liners in everything, and the subsequent popular joy in everything from the Chinook, Manix and Manix 80, to the new dual-lined Endura and Delica. I understand that this largely reflects market preference, and Spyderco should of course serve the ELU in its desire for dual-liners if that is what they want.

Back on the old technical forum at Spyderco.com we used to discuss the possibility of molded monocoque G10 or CF handles - doing away completely with slab/screw construction. Is this still the technological future, or is this truely the Age of Dual Liners?

So at last I wonder aloud if I am the only fan of ultraminimal linerless laminate constructions.

Is everyone else happier with dual liners in everything FRN/G10/CF?
 
I think there's a place for both, but there's something comforting about steel liners. In fairness to the dodo, it has a massive metal spacer inbetween the scales.

But there is a place for thinner, lighter folders (cheaper too). We're all waiting around for the Caly 3, (me too), but maybe we need to start imagining a G10 knife to compete with the Delica.

For most knives I look for in the upper price range, I look for dual steel liners (partial or full, doesn't really matter to me). I perceive at as a feature, even if I'm pretty cognizant that I'll never (personally) need the added integrity.
 
Carlos said:
Is everyone else happier with dual liners in everything FRN/G10/CF?
Click to expand...

I prefer the added weight on most knives. But on the other hand I like my knives as thin as possible, so it's nested liners or no liners for me. If the weight is good without them, than I don't need them.

Carlos said:
Back on the old technical forum at Spyderco.com we used to discuss the possibility of molded monocoque G10 or CF handles - doing away completely with slab/screw construction. Is this still the technological future, or is this truely the Age of Dual Liners?
Click to expand...

Not sure what you're talking about(too much technical terms) but since all folders are currently manufactured in a sandwich construction(Slab, liner, blade, liner, slab) I'd be curious to see something in (to steal the term from another thread) Taco or Pita construction.

Basically something similar to channel construction of Balis, but on a folder. The handle itself would be one molded piece of material, and the only fasteners would the pivots, and any pins/screws for the locking system.

One piece handles would be a very cool thing.:cool:
 
Carlos said:
Is everyone else happier with dual liners in everything FRN/G10/CF?
Click to expand...

No. I was bummed when I found out the Caly 3 was going to have liners. If memory serves, it was supposed to be the locking equivalent of the UKPK. With liners added I imagine it'll be far from it, in terms of weight and thickness.
 
I really like the E4 re-design, when the subject was first brought up by Sal, I asked for an adjustable pivot which is the best part of the re-design IMHO. I could live without the liners. There seems to be an industry trend now a days to build over weight knives. Good for some, bad for others (me), I like light knives (sub 4 oz. please). I have never worried about safety when using a linerless knife, my favorites being the original Endura with the integral clip, and the Dodo, both in SE which also seems to be an endangered species. But the general knife collector types seem to like em so I expect this trend to continue, at least into the near future.
Cheers,
Rob

PS, For production folders, I only buy Spyderco!!!
 
I have a strong preference for nested liners. No extra bulk, and only a little more weight than going totally linerless. Unfortunately, the knife community in general is obsessed with lock strength, no matter what the cost. People want full liners, and have little understanding of the strength of a nested liner.

May the Military and ParaMilitary live on forever.
 
I admit it, I like dual liners.
I think the added rigidity and strength are well worth the additional weight.

The unlined FRN Endura weighed 3 oz. (according to my 2005 Spyderco catalog), and the Endura 4 with dual liners weighs only 3.6 oz. (according to the 2006 catalog).
I think 0.6 oz. is fairly insignificant.

I also prefer a little heft to my knives (heck, I'm carrying a Buck 110 right now!).
Sometimes a knife can feel too light.
And sometimes a knife can be too thin.

I once owned a G-10 Navigator and a G-10 Renegade, both without liners.
I think they would have been better with dual liners.
 
Easy question for me. Linerless all the way. I realize they may improve strength, but they vastly increase weight and often thickness. I have yet to break a knife lock and I use several G-10 linerless knives. I was bummed out to see that the Caly 3 will have dual liners. I'll still buy it, but it would be better without them IMHO. The G-10 Medowlark is in the same boat. I think it would be good to keep both types in the lineup.
 
My first Spyderco was a Chinook II. Very impressive. Second was an Endura III. I was initially disappointed.
Since then, no knife has replaced the Endura III as my main carry. The Endura IV's increased weight is not really noticeable in the pocket but it is when I handle it. I like the pointy blade on the III better also. Call me crazy but I prefer the rivet over an adjustable screw. I don't take down my knives all that often and once set, the rivet needs little or no adjustment for a long time.

What's nice is the selection in the Spyderco lineup. I would love to see a linerless FRN Military riveted lockback. A larger handled Native with just a slightly larger blade. I think a part of this is the value you get from this type construction. At around $40, the Endura III is just about as good as it gets. Same for the S30v native.
 
I've never given it any thought until now. I guess I just assumed that everything had some sort of liner. I'm staring at my new Spyderco Jess Horn in ZDP and I don't think there are any liners whatsoever.

I really like this knife as it's sleek and light (not to mention incredibly sharp) but I guess the downfall is that all of its rigidity and strength is supplied by the FRN handles. That presumably could be a weakness and I would guess that if I wanted different handles (this knife in black micarta would be perfect) it would be a difficult mod.
 
For a heavy use knife, I prefer dual liners for piece of mind. I've never had a problem with linerless knives, and like them due to the light weight. I think a lot of it is personal preference. Most people do not use their folders hard enough to really NEED a folder with liners.
 
I don't mind the knives either way, as long as they are the same on both handles. I don't care for single linered knives if the liner isn't recessed. That's more of an appearance thing for me, though. The only thing I'd do to a couple of my linered knives would be to see dual liners. The overall thickness increase isn't much of an issue for me, when the added strength and rigidity is accounted for.
 
Carlos said:
Is everyone else happier with dual liners in everything FRN/G10/CF?
Click to expand...
Not me. The Military is a brilliant design. Whenever I think about it I'm still awed at how Spyderco created such a light, thin, and strong knife.

I was bummed when I learned that the E4 now has dual liners. The Endura was an even lighter alternative to my beloved Millie and is the knife I reach for when I'm wearing shorts, but mine is an Generation 3. If I had an E4 instead I would never carry it. The Military is a far superiour knife and a half ounce weight difference is not enough to get me to carry the E4.
 
Ritt said:
No. I was bummed when I found out the Caly 3 was going to have liners. If memory serves, it was supposed to be the locking equivalent of the UKPK. With liners added I imagine it'll be far from it, in terms of weight and thickness.
Click to expand...

I use both a UKPK and a Calypso Jr. (both linerless) on a daily basis. If the Caly 3 is thicker and heavier than the UKPK, I won't get one.

Whenever I need a knife for something where the added strength of liners might come in useful, I take a fixed anyway.

Hans
 
Ritt said:
No. I was bummed when I found out the Caly 3 was going to have liners. If memory serves, it was supposed to be the locking equivalent of the UKPK. With liners added I imagine it'll be far from it, in terms of weight and thickness.
Click to expand...

The Caly 3 is going to have liners? Say it ain't so!
 
I was under the impression that the issue of using liners or not was studied prior to the decision to use them for the new versions of the knives.

It was determined that more ELU wanted the feature; for weight, strength, whatever.

The weight increase is negligible IMO - why worry about a couple of ounces or less?
 
I'd have to agree on the weight issue of partial liners. I don't think I'd be able to tell the difference on my para, for instance, with or without liners. But maybe on smaller knives?

The weight of my folders is never an issue though...but I tend to stick with ~3 inch blades, so it might be diff for the Manix folks.
 
Some information to share;

Much of why a liner is used is in the "total package". For example:

If the model is going to have a clip, how will you fasten the clip to the knife in a functional, reliable, long lasting manner? Some systems work better than others depending on the design parameters.

Will the material support clip screws?

Does the lock require dual liners (eg: Compression lock)?

Will exceptional strength be required for the design to meet its design parameters? Such as the Chinook or Manix.

How thick/thin does the model need to be to service the design fujntion?

What does the customer (ELU) want? This being ultimately the deciding factor.

Would the design serve its function better with nested or full liners?

Often times the "slution" is deeper than imagined.

I can say that we are skeltoninzing current liners and we'll be skeletonizing all models with liners as we refine or create new designs with liners. No sense in extra weight.

If I may quote Colin Chapman; "Simplicate and add lightness".

Smcfalls,

The Spydercard was one piece of folded steel.

sal
 
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