The Ultimate Khukuri. How Do You Measure That?

[Blackdog]

Hello All,

After an unplanned vacation in one our nations finest healing establishments I am pleased to be back at my desk, reading the postings from the past week or so. One thread in particular has aroused my interest, that being Lt. Dan's quest for the ultimate one-handed Khukuri.

I have intimate knowledge of the capabilities of the SN-1 model and, to a lesser degree, the old model Panawal from GH. I've used my SN-1 to clear brush, chop a weekends worth of firewood while camping, destroy a perfectly functional lawn sprinkler system (not my most proud moment) and to keep the Mongol Hordes from invading my neighborhood. OK, I haven't really seen any Mongol Hordes but I know they wouldn't want to mess with a Khukuri toting citizen.

Anyway, of all the reviews I've ever read on knives and guns there are 2 that stand out in my mind. One was this one written by a fellow forumite on his Panawal. The other was in a gun publication many years ago. The writer stated that a 240 grain, jacketed soft-point .44 magnum round, fired from a S&W model 29, consistantly shot through 19 house trailors (parked side by side) if the bullet did not strike a major appliance enroute. Both of these reviews put things in a real life perspective for me.

The Panawal review was very relevant to me. I grew up in the mountains of PA. I've been stuck in the woods, in the dark. I know that "OH NO" feeling all too well. The .44 Magnum review, on the other hand, put bullet penetration into terms I could understand. What I could never understand was where this guy found 19 empty (I assume) house trailors parked side by side and how he got away with shooting them full of holes. Don't they put you in jail for that? But, I digress.

I suppose my question is; How do you measure a chopping tool's effeciency in real life terms? How do you know if you have the Ultimate Khukuri?

Any thoughts on this one?

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Blackdog

 

[Mike L.]

Hopefully, Cliff Stamp will jump in here. He has done a lot of work in this area.

--Mike L.



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Real men ride Moto Guzzis!

 

[Blackdog]

Mike,

First of all, sorry to hear about your cycle accident. BUMMER!! I hope both you & the bike are in repairable condition.

I've read most of Cliff Stamp's reviews and agree that he's probably done more torture testing on knives than anyone on the planet. But, from what I understand, Cliff is one of those larger than life individuals who could easily swing a 20" AK in each hand all day long and then go out and wrestle a Grizzly for relaxation. I, on the other hand, am a tall, lanky type who wouldn't want to carry a 20" AK across the yard and wouldn't shoot a Grizzly for fear of pi$$ing him off. My idea of the ultimate khukuri and Cliff's idea would be totally different.

See where I'm going with this?

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Blackdog

 

[David Innes]

Hmmm. That is a puzzler, for sure.
All life and experience is unique to the individual... Maybe beer tastes one way to me and another way to you. Still the same beer, but how we experience and describe it can only be different.
One idea I had about this topic is to forget about blade length, weight, handle style and so on. Feel the spirit of the blade... You will find your perfect khurkuri that way only. (Feel the Force Luke!)
This actually looks more than a bit phoney, but do you know what I'm driving at?
My perfect khurkuri sits in front of me now. Rosewood handle cheetlang, as sold by Craig a few weeks ago. Perfect in every way - no exaggeration. I think it is the apex of the khurkuri maker's art. Yes, art.
The only problem is this: it simply doesn't like me! It has bitten me three times already. I'm okay with knives, swords, sythes, chainsaws, chisels and so on (I'm an amateur cabinet maker), only accident I ever had is when I hit and broke my little finger with a mallet, chiselling out a rebate in an oak frame.
So it can't be ME, it has to be the cheetlang. Right this insane nonsense has gone on long enough. Thanks for your patience... if you got this far.
David

 

[Mike L.]

Blackdog, thanks for the well-wishes.
The motorcycle is totalled. It was a beautiful bike and will be missed greatly, as I may never be able to replace it, the way things are going.
I think I may heal up ok, eventually. Busted vertebrae have me more concerned than my compound-fractured leg. Dr's have told me I may have "some" pain for the rest of my days.

Back to the subject at hand...the perfect chopping tool is one which moves the maximum amount of wood (choppee) with the least amount of effort on the part of the user (chopper).
There are also aesthetic considerations if one's chopping tool of choice is a khuk.
I am the lucky owner of the 1st cheetlang GH sent over ...it is a beautiful blade, but it speaks to me more of ...well...death...than it does of utility. I have named it "Kali."
My GH Panawal is a better chopper, being a bit heftier. So which is the 'perfect' one ?
Neither...and both.

--Mike L.



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Real men ride Moto Guzzis!

 

[David Innes]

Mike, hi!
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Don't believe your doctor knows all, 'cos they don't. You sound like a positive kind of guy anyway...
Have you ever posted pics of your cheetlang? I would like to see and compare.
Yeah. 'Death'... I hear that also, but it's mine she wants.
David

 

[Mike L.]

Off topic, I suppose, but it's funny how some knives seem to have a spirit.

I have a little Kershaw folder that bit me bady after I had it a short time..I put it away and have never carried it since.
That was about 1992.

The Cheetlang definitely has a killer spirit.
On the other hand, I have an HI village khuk which speaks to me of work, and doesn't want anything to do with fighting...or did my head get rattled in the wreck despite the helmet?

I regret that I don't currently have a scanner or a digital cam...so no pictures of the Cheetlang. Craig did post one some time ago...if you can find it. I don't think mine is much different from any other...has a horn handle.

I have read of "killer spirits" in other blades, notable the Malaysian kris or keris.
Pardon my ignorance of the proper term.
There are some scary tales about those.

--Mike L.

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Real men ride Moto Guzzis!

 

[Blackdog]

Mike/David,

Now we're getting somewhere. You both have an advantage in that I've never held a Cheetlang. I've handled SN-1's, 15" & 16" AK's, Panawals and Mini-Jungles, all of which have their good and bad points. My personal tastes run toward the lighter & faster models. My favorite (for now) is my old SN-1. It's not the prettiest khuk I own but it's the one I always pick up and use. The Cheetlang (when I finally get one) will probably qualify as my choice for the Ultimate Khuk, but I won't know until I pick it up and hold it. It seems to be a cross between a Sirupati and a SN-1 or WW II. Light, fast and utterly effecient.

Don't discount the fact that your Khuks "speak to you". We all have weapons, tools or other inanimate objects that just feel right when we pick them up. They fit, they work, and they give us a feeling of confidence when we use them. Doesn't everyone have that one hammer, screwdriver, golf club, pocket knife or deer rifle that they always reach for? It's not always the most expensive, the prettiest, the heaviest or the newest, but it's the one that we trust. Man has had a relationship with his tools since the beginning of time. Some things you just don't question.

David, maybe your Cheetlang is meerly demanding your respect when it bites you.

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Blackdog

 

[Lt. Dan]

This is a whale of a thread with lots of different facets, and some could be sensitive. I'm very excited it's on this forum, and look forward to kicking around and dealing with them directly, but without agenda or attitude. I hope all will feel free to disagree with my posts and state their cases. My quest is for truth, and I sure wasn't born with it.

I'm also quite happy it was Blackdog who started this topic! That other thread was about a search for the ultimate, heavy duty (but comfortably so) 1-handed chopper. That khukuri is to become the 3rd working knife (my hands like r-wood for work) with a Mini-Jungle and WW2. He gave me an idea that I'd not considered, the 16" AK. Shorter than the WW2, but not a huge weight difference; yet very different dynamics. The reason the 18" AK got the nod was due to my preconcieved notion of having the 3 to be VERY different in size and weight. A healthier khukuri fund would have made the 16" happen, but I'll be satisfied with this squad for awhile. (BTW, horn-handled lookers are fair game for the unusual blade.)

I holeheartedly agree that folks can see the same things in opposite ways. We don't even do the same tasks the same way. I love to watch people run. There are surprisingly many structural anatomic varaitions that come into play here. Or we can just like the looks or feel of doing it another way, so the same might khukuri work for one person, but not the other.

Khukuris are the most 3-D knives I know. Because they are forged by hand, the mass and weight distribution is unique to each. We have 4 Mini-Jungles. 3 were bought together (for the kids) and are so close in workmanship they may well have been made by the same hands. The length and weight are incredibly close, and the handles are very much alike (with the points a little varied). But they don't handle the same. Looking closely, the weight and mass distribution isn't the same. Just a little bit of change makes for big differences here. And any variation is greatly amplified since the handle is at one end.

Physics has everything to do with khukuris, and there is more to it than we've touched on here so far.

Let's have at it,

Lt. Dan

 

[David Innes]

It's worth a thought Blackdog... It certainly has my respect! I've only ever unsheathed it to admire it. Never used it as a tool. Perhaps that's what's wrong.
David

 

[Snuffy]

David,
I also have one of the rosewood cheetlangs, and it's my favorite khuk. Mine hasn't bitten me yet and so far I don't get the feeling it wants to. I'm interested in martial arts, and when I try some of the drills and forms I've learned with it there's been no problem. It's light and quick, in addition to being beautiful and almost seems eager to please. I think mine's a fighter, but don't think it'd object to being used (with the proper respect of course)! When did you get bit?

 

[David Innes]

Hey Snuffy,
Only little bits of bites, thankfully. I've got a personal rule about keeping the edged side away from me and keep my hands on the blunt side. I've only had finger nicks I guess, happened in the early afternoon. Very surprising though, considering, also surprising amounts of red paint. I can't explain how I've been cut so much in such a short space of time when I have other big knives, 'basic' tools like chisels - which I use regularly, and other mad stuff like sythes just hanging around.
David

 

[David Innes]

Also, Lt Dan,
I don't believe what you say about language skills and intelligence. What do you do for a job?
David

 

[Lt. Dan]

David: This is a stretch, but is somewhat related to khukuris. My regular job is to help out with surgery in the OR, which is my same job in the Army Reserve (66E: RN: OR). Surprisingly, this helps me understand what khukuris do and their effect on living tissue. It's part of a teaching institution, so the doc's are pretty good about giving my gray matter all it can soak up.

My favorite orthopod studied katana for many years under the same guy I had the opportunity to study empty hand stuff when I was a teenager. Turns out that this master had studied katana (and every other Japanese martial art) his whole life under the most most prestigous names of the time. The world is shrinking fast. Anyhow, this ortho guy now works where I do and can give some real good teachings in the OR about what goes on with edged steel and flesh. I had never even suspected the refinements of the katana and technique. Some of these issues apply to the khukuri as well.

It seems like the more I learn, the less I know. (God doesn't need my wisdom, but He can do without my ignorance.) I love questions, but rarely have answers anymore.

Can we talk khukuris now? --Lt. Dan

 

[Blackdog]

So Dan, you're in the medical profession. A fascinating field of employment. I've been an aircraft technician for 33 years and an EMT since 1995. People find it strange when I say how similar the two fields can be. The laws of mechanics, hydraulics, electrics, fuel systems, pneumatics and structures apply to humans and aircraft alike. You'd be amazed how similar the troubleshooting is on both "species". But, that's a discussion for another time.

To continue with the original topic of this thread, I'd like to add another variable to the mix. I have 3 SN-1's but with different handle configurations. On the pic below you'll see:

A stock SN-1 handle.
A stock SN-1 handle temporarily modified with self adhesive bandage (my user Khuk).
A custom Cherry Wood handle (compliments of my friend Ray Lee (Maddog 2020).

These three knives have not been modified in any other way, but all have radically different handling characteristics due to their handle configurations. I believe my ultimate Khukuri (regardless of blade length or style) would have a handle that is somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd example.

The Self-adhesive bandage is a great way to experiment on your handles without performing any permanent alterations. I use Johnson & Johnson COACH elastic bandage (2") with a single layer of medical tape to keep it from coming undone during use. It allows you to build the handle up to fit your hand, it covers any sharp or "hot Spots" that may cause blisters and it can easily be removed to bring your Khuk back to original configuration.

Building the ultimate Khukuri will, I believe, be a most interesting project. We'll all end up with something totally different and have a great ride getting there. Let the games begin.........

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Blackdog

[This message has been edited by Blackdog (edited 10-07-2000).]

 

[Lt. Dan]

Blackdog,

There hasn't been much discussion on the forum about handles, other than material. (good pic & examples) Maybe it's because the shape is such an obviously individual thing. My mits love the texture, absorbancy an "give" of rosewood. The raised ring location is also critical for me, as it separates the middle fingers. If this ridge is positioned any more than halfway down toward the buttcap, the points bug me. My most comfortable handles have the point on the spine side angled down more away from the blade. The look is a little more asymmetrical, but the form follows function here. Handles also feel best to me when they are a little longer to give room for wrist movement when swinging so the points aren't felt.

Maybe these things don't matter to others; I wish they didn't to me, as I've passed up some stunningly beautiful khukuris just because the handle shape/size didn't work for me. My paws are a bit on the smaller size of medium. I use size 7 1/2, which brings up another point: Darn few people are satisfied with the fit of ANY non-custom surgical gloves, and thin Latex does stretch. There also is big money going into endless research for that elusive perfect fit.

Handle thickness and shape contribute here, too. My Zebra SN1 has a flatter shape, is a shorter than my norm, but works because that spine-side point clears the lower palm heel due to its flatter shape. A rounder shape needs that point angled down. A slight palm swell is also nice, but not too much extra circumference to keep my short fingers from wrapping around securely.

On the other hand, the "balance" has a short, lean shape that's hard to explain why it's comfortable. The ring and points are out of the way, which seem to be prominent factors.

The soft wrap is another approach (thanks for your recipe). I've been told the Gurkhas wrap (tape?) their khukuris.

Some Cheetlang owners say the built-up handle shape on the sides at the butt gives great lateral blade movement. I'm looking forward to that little discovery, my own self!

So many factors that directly affect individual anatomy....It seems like we are getting closer to understanding the issues that make up the perfect individualized khukuri. (looking forward to more of this, blades, sheaths, etc.)

A Gurkha hand surgeon is what we need here.
I hope I said as much as I talked.

Lt. Dan

 

[Blackdog]

Lt. Dan,

To me the handle of the tool, whether it be a knife, hammer, screwdriver, dinner fork or a ball point pen, is probably the most important consideration. I've had state of the art folders that felt all but useless to me because the handles were too short, too thin or too narrow. The same goes for the hand tools I used on a daily basis. Then again, I didn't fare any better with much oversized or bulky handles. My solution was to find tools with handles that were as close as I could get to being a good fit and wrap or cover them to fill in the difference.

Over the years I've tried just about every wrapping/covering material known to man. Prior to my introduction to elastic bandage, I kept several sections of bicycle inner-tube in my tool box. I'd cut it to length, then stretch it (like a sock) over the handle of the tool that needed it. It provided a good grip with wet hands and had the added advantage of cushioning impact vibration. The problem with it was that you were limited to the thickness of the tube.

I also tried various handle wraps made for tennis rackets, golf clubs and baseball bats, but found they would tend to peel back or off under sustained use. They're very "direction specific".

As far as balance, I found that building up certain points of the handle to provide a more natural grip also serves to change the balance of my Khuks. The standard SN-1 feels extremely blade heavy although it weighs the same as my other 2 (within an ounce or two). The wrapped handle Khuk has almost a neutral balance when I hold it and is much quicker in the hand. The Cherry handle is oversized and makes the knife feel as if the blade is lightweight and small, although this is certainly not the case. When holding each in a natural grip, the hand filling grips cause less strain on my wrist, provide more control and allow me to get more of my arm & upper torso into each swing. The perfect combination (for me) lies somewhere above the standard handle and below the Cherry handle.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Off to experiment with something. Back later.

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Blackdog

[This message has been edited by Blackdog (edited 10-07-2000).]

 

[ArchAngel]

BlackDog,
I agree that the handle of any tool is the largest determining factor in the comfort and handling chararistics of it. I have used tools and blades regularly it seems for as long as I can remember in my trade as an assembly technition in a machine shop building objects mainly for the Navy submarine and aircraft field. I need tools to handle well and be comfortable for the long haul.
The same with a knife, it must be comfortable or it is no fun to use. In this train of thought, I recently was fortunate enough to buy Reiger Khukri #2 from it's original owner. This handle is the perfect fit and feel to me. This Khuk is the proper blending of modern ergonomics and old world chraftsmanship. It handles like lightning in the hand. Making the blade light as can be. It chops like a woodsmans ax with ease. (Sorry Craig, It begged to be used.)
It flows in the hand like an extension of my arm. You guys should convince Craig to make a limited run of these for you. This Khukri is well worth owning and USING! The Reiger gets my vote as the perfect Khukri! Weapon, tool , art, it fills all of those spots for me.

 

[Blackdog]

ArchAngel,

Good to see you & thanks for your insights on this thread. Most welcome information in the quest for perfection.

For those of you who haven't seen it, the pics below are of the Reiger Khukuri and its handle. As you can see, quite a departure from the traditional Khukuri configuration.

What's the approximate weight of this one ArchAngel? I believe the OAL is in the neighborhood of 18-20" if my memory serves me well.


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Blackdog

[This message has been edited by Blackdog (edited 10-07-2000).]

 

[Lt. Dan]

The experience and understanding you toolies are sharing really applies here. Thanks, Blackdog and AA. Don't stop now!

Blackdog: Your observation of how the same blade behaves differently with different handles is hard evidence of the handle's importance. Building up the handle in key places must be taking advantage of the hand anatomy, thus changing the leverage on the blade to your liking. Perhaps that raised ring is unnecessary. I wonder how much of its presence is tradition, and how much is for traction on the smooth handle design. (BTW, I have 2 materials you might want to wrap handles with---if interested, just e-mail delivery address.)

The Zebra SN1 sounds like another animal from some of your SN1's; it's very quick (short, flat handle). My MJ (Mini-Jungle) is my most nimble (WW2-length handle, smaller diameter), and the WW2 is more of a power-glide medium chopper (bigger, but comfy grip).

Handles have become such a big deal to me that the sheer beauty of a khukuri no longer can make me reach for my wallet....Pretty is as pretty does.

I've been curious about the Reiger khukuri. The few testimonies have been good, but I'd like to hear more. If it's as good as it looks and folks say, then maybe we've got a good shot at another run (Micarta might be nice).

Glad to serve,
Dan