THE ULTIMATE LOCK ?????

Allen Blade · Nov 20, 1999

Hello,

Well id have to say the SABENZA is one solid folder.

I have fondled MARION David POFF`s
Sabenza and i was impressed with it.

I think its Alot more Reliable and Bullet proof than anything most of the MICRO manufacturing companys are producing.

I might even Buy one when i find a need for a folder. I liked the Fact that it locks up solid, no blade play at all (atleast in the one David had) and is Easy to manipulate and The Intregal Lock is consistant in its lockup travel.

So i guess for me the bar lock is the way to go if i want a folder.

Allen blade

Clay · Nov 20, 1999

Go Chuck go!
Preach the word of the Balisong........ I couldn't agree with ya' more.

And, you can't beat the Axis lock for strength, ambidexterity, smoothness, one handed closing, simplicity....... the list goes on.

------------------
Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com

James Mattis · Nov 20, 1999

I've never met a balisong that wasn't two straight handle halves, and a straight blade. There are plenty of knives I'd rather have in my hand, once they're open.

The Axis Lock has a lot going for it, though the spring housing area under the handle slab seems to invite fluff and gunk to eventually get in there and never get out, and it's not the mechanism of choice for a slim knife. Integral is very nice, but it, like a liner lcok, doesn't have a backspring type action to pull the blade back into a closed position if some G-force bumps it a little bit open.

Easy blade/handle interchangeability would be nice, to free some of us from SKU hell.

------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 20, 1999

OK, you win. Balisongs have the ultimate lock. Now if only this ultimate lock could be put on a one handed opener I'd be happy. However, this is not the case. So I'll stick to my Sebenza and other folders for now. I'm not willing to give up the clip, the full proof one handed opening, the handle ergonomics, the steel, etc, just to gain some lock reliability. How many sebenza lock failures have you heard of? I have not heard of one, and until I can no longer trust my sebenza I will not give up all the other things just to gain some lock reliability.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

Gollnick · Nov 20, 1999

The Balisong is the original one-handed folder.

Take a look:
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick/videos.html

------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick

Clay · Nov 21, 1999

And if thats not enough, theres more proof here:

http://www.balisongxtreme.com/baliplanet2/other.htm#vids

------------------
Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com

stjames · Nov 21, 1999

How about the Swing/Irie? Also a "pivot and Handle" style lock.

------------------
James Segura
San Francisco, CA

D. Epstein · Nov 21, 1999

To me, the classic lockback is the be all and end all of locking mechanisms. Strong, user friendly, ambidextrous, and easy to make (I guess). What more could anyone ask for.

I think the profusion of lock mechanisms lately has more to do with marketing than anything else.

Look at Spyderco for example. They make a couple of liner-lock models that I know of and about a hundred lockbacks. That shows you their philosophy: If it ain't broke don't fix it. Go with what has always worked.

------------------
Oderint dum metuant

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 21, 1999

Since the topic has moved from locks to folder design in general I'll add some things.

A balisong lock is obtrusive. In fact is it the most obtrusive lock I can think of. It is so obtrusive that the whole folder design is affected, and thus limited. The blade has to be narrow, the handle design is very limited, handle materials are also limited, etc. Is it just me or do all balisongs look the same? If we had two balisong companies making balisongs, by how much would the different models differ?

How ergonomic are balisong handles? The handles will always be pretty narrow. The handles design cannot really be changed to make it more ergonomic.

Yes a Balisong's lock is very reliable, probably the most reliable out of current mainstream locks. But to gain that little (necessary?) bit of reliability you have to give up a whole lot of things.

No clip. (if you do not like sheaths, you are going to have to put it in your pocket and fish it out whenever you want to use it.)
No simple one handed opening
You have a very limited selection of balisongs, and so a very limited selection of steels to choose from.

I do not think 99% of folding knife buyers out there would want to give up these conveniences just to gain that little bit of reliability. How many people are willing to learn and use the one handed opening manipulations needed to open a balisong one handed, and do that day in and day out whenever they need their knife? Again, it's more of a hassle just to gain that little bit of reliability. It's not practical, when you can just use your thumb to open a folder as compared to flicks and catches. Don't get me wrong, balisongs are real cool and fun, but when it comes to practicality, balisongs do not exactly fit the bill.

Chuck and Clay, you guys are balisong lovers, and that is understandable. Balisongs sure are cool, but most people who want a good solid working knife, are going to look elsewhere.

BTW...My experience with balisongs is very limited. I'm sure there are many more downsides and upsides to balisongs vs one handed opening folders.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

[This message has been edited by JoHnYKwSt (edited 21 November 1999).]

stjames · Nov 21, 1999

Every lock depends on certain construction techniques that limit the design of the knife somewhat. He balisongs limitation have been laid out, the Axis and Rolling locks need a lot of thickness in the handle to work, the Integral lock means a thick Ti slab for a handle, etc.

The most versatile as far as shape and handle material allowances seem to be the lock back and liner lock, but they each have their drawbacks as well.

We each decide what is important to us and go from there.

For a tough working knife, I prefer the ease of use, simplicity of design and reliability of the Integral lock. Since I like a metal handled knife and dont necessarily need a fancy design on my work tools, the drawbacks dont really affect me, though I do like Darrel Ralphs Apogee and the Decorated and Wood Inlay Sebenzas.

But on a general carry knife, a well made liner lock is more than reliable for most tasks at hand, and combines the ease of operation and simplicity of design that I crave with a more versatile choice of handle materials and styles.

------------------
James Segura
San Francisco, CA

Gollnick · Nov 22, 1999

No clip. (if you do not like sheaths, you are going to have to put it in your pocket and fish it outwhenever you want to use it.)

Balisongs with pocket clips are available.

No simple one handed opening

While some manipulations are elaborate, I have not failed to teach anyone who made even a half-hearted effort a few simple openings within five minutes.

You have a very limited selection of balisongs, and so a very limited selection of steels to choose from.... The blade has to be narrow, the handle design is very limited, handle materials are also limited, etc. Is it just me or do all balisongs look the same?

I have balisongs in just about any steel you'd like from spring steel from old Jeeps to Damascus. ATS-34 and 440 are common. I have several in D2. Many, many styles are available. Any blade profile you'd like including double-edged can be had. Try putting a Kris in your Axis Lock. The balisong scales nicely; I have some with blades as short as one inch and some as long as 27 inches of blade length.

Just spend some time on my web page and you can see pictures of all sorts of balisongs with all kinds of blade and handle materials. Yes, all balisongs are similar. They all have a blade and two handles that counter-rotate around the tang. All liner locks are similar too as are all lock back etc. But, there is a huge variety of balisongs available.

The blade does not have to be narrow. Until recently, one of the featured balisongs on my page was an example with a blade about an inch and a half wide.

I don't understand what you mean by the lock being "obtrusive". Yes, form follows function, but don't you think that this is true on other locks as well? Consider, for example, so many knives with thumb holes in the blade and how this forms a sort of "hump back" on the blade. The BM AFCK doesn't have so much of a hump, but the scales have to swoop way down to allow access to the hole.

The balisong design is "out of the box" for a folding pocket knife, that is true. I'm reminded of the Air Force general who, upon seeing the first stealth bomber, exclaimed, "That is the ugliest aircraft ever made!" Of course, today, the Air Force loves those planes. (BTW, when the Stealth technology was being developed at Lockheed's famous Skunkworks, an official photographer was assigned to document the project. On morning, he took pictures of Ben Rich and some of the engineers in an office environment. As professional photographers often do, he used a Polaroid instant camera to take a few quick test shots to check lighting, etc. before using his more conventional camera. The Polaroid was one of the then new ones with the sonar ranging feature to adjust the focus. Not surprisingly, the engineers he was photographing took a minor interest in this new camera. Later that day, Ben Rich was walking down the hall with another engineer who he knew was a photography buff. They ran into this same professional photographer. Ben said, "Show my friend here your new Polaroid with the sonar thing. He'd be very interested in that I'm sure." The photographer explained that he didn't have it with him because he'd had to return that camera to the shop because it wasn't working correctly. He explained that he'd been taking pictures of that funny airplane in the la earlier in that day (keep in mind that the photographer doesn't know about the airplane's special characteristics -- stricktly need-to-know, you know) and the camera wouldn't focus on it. It was at this point that Ben Rich realized that the same design characteristics that make the plane invisible on radar also make it invisible on sonar (a fact confirmed by mechanics forced to keep stealth planes in bat-infested hangers in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War who, in the mornings, routinely found dead bats around the planes with their heads broken. The bats had flown right into the planes and broke their heads.). Ben Rich immediately started a project to develop a stealth submarine for the Navy. The project was a great success. They made a scale model that demonstrated perfectly how a sub could be made invisible to the most advanced sonar. The Navy's top admirals where brought in for a demonstration. And they were very impressed ... until the model was lifted out of the tank and they all exclaimed, "No Navy sailor would be caught dead on a ship that ugly!" Thus ended the stealth sub project. The point here being that one should not let form get in your way.*) The topic of this thread is not "The best conventional-looking folder lock?" but, "THE ULTIMATE LOCK?????". The balisong is the ultimate lock.

* The story of the stealth sub is told by Ben Rich is his most excellent book, _The Skunk Works_.

------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 22, 1999

Chuck,

I already agreed that the balisong is the ultimate lock. But other points must be considered for that lock design to work.

If a person is a knife user. He uses and depends on his knife everyday. He is not going to pick a balisong. If he did, he would have to learn the rather simple, yet unnecessary handle manipulations. He would have to do these manipulations day in and day out. What does he gain by using this balisong as opposed to a normal folder? He gains a little bit of lock reliability. Unless you like balisongs and think they are cool, (and who doesn't) then you are not going to carry one versus your typical folder.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I see a balisong more like a yoyo than a dependable tool. Without the cool factor, you are not left with much.

You have to look at it though the eyes of the typical knife user and not balisong lover, then you will see what I mean.

Yes of course ALL locks are obtrusive. And some locks are less obtrusive than others. A balisong is just very different than the typical locks.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

Gollnick · Nov 22, 1999

Aside from legal issues which vary from state-to-state and even within a state, if you can legally carry a balisong, then why would you not? I know many people who routinely do carry a balisong as their daily carry. Just the other day, a fellow sent me a great picture of the wonderful balisong that is his daily carry in Florida. They are very practical knives.

We've established that the balisong is THE strongest and THE most reliable lock. The balisong is the closest thing you can get to a full-tang fixed blade in a folding knife. Why dismiss it now as a "yo-yo" with no practical use? Maybe you don't need a strong, reliable lock? Maybe you enjoy having your lock fail on you?

If strength and reliability are the criteria, then nothing beats a balisong.

In the last year or so, we've had at least a dozen threads here on BFC about how to open various folders including the Axis. Very few uninitiated are able to pick up my AFCK and open it with one hand without at least a bit of instruction and a slow-motion demo or two. As I've said, I can make a balisong artist out of just about anyone in less than five minutes. I don't think five minutes is an unreasonable investment and I don't think it's significantly longer than one must invest in just about any other one-hander (even a push-button auto takes a bit of instruction and a bit of practice to get reliable with.)

While the simple way to open my AFCK is just to sweep the blade out with your thumb, I probably know at least a dozen other, fancier manipulations. Sorry. It's must my nature. Anything I pick up ends up getting manipulated in some way. Things that move or fold or have other interest end up with even more elaborate manipulations. Some of my AFCK manipulations are practical and for everyday use. Some AFCK manipulations are for fun and for show. Some balisong manipulations are for practical, everyday use. Some are just for fun and for show.

------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick

Clay · Nov 22, 1999

Jeeeeeeez..........

I bet Mr. Onion never saw THIS tangent coming.

------------------
Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com

Gollnick · Nov 23, 1999

He asked for "THE ULTIMATE LOCK?????" and the balisong is THE ULTIMATE LOCK.

Some of these folks remind me of those Navy admirals who spent decades and countless billions of dollars trying to make tiny reductions in the sonar signature of subs and then, when shown the ultimate design, balked because it didn't fit their preconceived notions about what a boat should LOOK like.

Now, if you'd like to talk about "the penultimate lock," or "the best CA legal lock," or "the best conventional-looking lock," well, those would be a different thread.

------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 23, 1999

I guess we all have different personal preferences and what's important to each of us. I'll still rely on my one hander for now. Who knows maybe one day I'll get myself a balisong.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

ShadedDude · Nov 23, 1999

Reliability and ease of use.
Strength is also a consideration.

------------------
The Infamous ShadedDude
http://www.inanimatemotion.com
Web Design and Hosting

RMLamey · Nov 23, 1999

To heck with all these locks, give me a fixed blade.

THE ULTIMATE LOCK ?????

Allen Blade

Clay

Balisong forum Moderator

James Mattis

JoHnYKwSt

Gollnick

Musical Director

Clay

Balisong forum Moderator

stjames

Sebenzanista

D. Epstein

JoHnYKwSt

stjames

Sebenzanista

Gollnick

Musical Director

JoHnYKwSt

Gollnick

Musical Director

Clay

Balisong forum Moderator

Gollnick

Musical Director

JoHnYKwSt

ShadedDude

RMLamey