The Vintage handle information thread

FortyTwoBlades said:
"Contractor grade" is their highest because the tool is considered as being in continuous use on the job. Industrial applications tend to have slightly lower (though still high) frequency of use and lower intensity of application.
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Well then here comes the real brain melter ... they have one listed as "industrial/contractor". Would it be too easy to just call them what they are ... flawless grain, good grain, acceptable grain, total crap?
 
A couple years ago, SeymourMfg.com listed the following "quality levels", with the descriptions of Good, Better, and Best:

LINK REPLACEMENT HANDLES

Best Hickory: 01 Series - American wood with sanded finish and yellow non-slip grip
Best Hickory: 02 Series - American wood with a wax finish
Better Hickory: 04 Series - American wood with a wax finish
Better Hickory: 19 Series - American wood with a clear lacquer finish
Good Hickory: 08 Series - American wood with a wax finish

Best Ash: 18 Series - American wood with a clear lacquer finish
Better Ash: 21 Series - American wood with a clear finish
 
cityofthesouth said:
Well then here comes the real brain melter ... they have one listed as "industrial/contractor". Would it be too easy to just call them what they are ... flawless grain, good grain, acceptable grain, total crap?
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Then all the axe hobbyists would call them and insist on handpicked flawless unvarnished handles, and a handful of handles would take as long as a gross! And the paying customers would be miffed at having to sort handles themselves.

I think all suppliers sort handles based on quality and do reject many unusable ones, but functionality is different from the " rules" that are insisted on by the obsessed (hobbyists) and the hapless (e.g.)bushcrafters that follow them fanatically. Even the almighty grain orientation is something that wasnt an issue when many of us were taught or we were told exactly the opposite. Runout is the biggest cause of failure; grain orientation is probably tenth on the listl
 
Steve Tall said:
A couple years ago, SeymourMfg.com listed the following "quality levels", with the descriptions of Good, Better, and Best:

LINK REPLACEMENT HANDLES

Best Hickory: 01 Series - American wood with sanded finish and yellow non-slip grip
Best Hickory: 02 Series - American wood with a wax finish
Better Hickory: 04 Series - American wood with a wax finish
Better Hickory: 19 Series - American wood with a clear lacquer finish
Good Hickory: 08 Series - American wood with a wax finish

Best Ash: 18 Series - American wood with a clear lacquer finish
Better Ash: 21 Series - American wood with a clear finish
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Current catalog listing:

"ALL HANDLES ARE CAREFULLY GRADED & SORTED
LINK's experienced timber buyers grade log quality. They are looking for logs that are heavy and defect-free.

When the logs are sawed into squares (or blanks), the squares are graded. After the squares are turned into handles, they are graded again.

PRIMARY LOG QUALITY FACTORS
Some of the factors used to determine quality include:
STRAIGHTNESS OF GRAIN
MOISTURE CONTENT
DENSITY
FREEDOM FROM DEFECTS

WOOD COLOR NOT A QUALITY FACTOR
Color of the wood is not a factor in determining the quality of hickory handles. The best hickory handles may be all white, red-and-white, or all red.

LINK AMERICAN HICKORY QUALITY LEVELS

01 Best quality American hickory with sanded finish and yellow non slip grip. Meets or exceeds all government "A" specifications. Ideal for the most demanding industrial and commercial applications.

02 Best quality American hickory with a wax finish. Meets or exceeds all government "A" specifications. Ideal for the most demanding industrial and commercial applications [side note: this is the grade I typically buy]

04 Better quality American hickory with a wax finish. Ideal for frequent heavy-duty use by farmers, ranchers, contractors, and other professionals with demanding construction and other professional applications.

19 Better quality American hickory with a clear lacquer finish. Fire finish provides a highly pleasing appearance. Ideal for frequent heavy-duty use by farmers, ranchers, contractors, and other professionals with demanding construction and other professional applications.

08 Good quality American hickory with wax finish. These handles provide exceptional value and economy for homeowner and other occasional use applications.

09 Promotional quality American hickory with wax finish. These handles provide good value and economy for homeowner and other occasional use applications.

LINK AMERICAN ASH QUALITY LEVELS

18 Best quality American ash with a clear lacquer finish. Ideal for the most demanding industrial and commercial applications.

21 Better quality American ash with a clear finish. Ideal for frequent heavy-duty use by farmers, ranchers, contractors, and other professionals with demanding construction and other professional applications."

BG_Farmer said:
Then all the axe hobbyists would call them and insist on handpicked flawless unvarnished handles, and a handful of handles would take as long as a gross! And the paying customers would be miffed at having to sort handles themselves.

I think all suppliers sort handles based on quality and do reject many unusable ones, but functionality is different from the " rules" that are insisted on by the obsessed (hobbyists) and the hapless (e.g.)bushcrafters that follow them fanatically. Even the almighty grain orientation is something that wasnt an issue when many of us were taught or we were told exactly the opposite. Runout is the biggest cause of failure; grain orientation is probably tenth on the listl
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Pretty much nailed it right there. :)
 
BG_Farmer said:
Then all the axe hobbyists would call them and insist on handpicked flawless unvarnished handles, and a handful of handles would take as long as a gross! And the paying customers would be miffed at having to sort handles themselves.

I think all suppliers sort handles based on quality and do reject many unusable ones, but functionality is different from the " rules" that are insisted on by the obsessed (hobbyists) and the hapless (e.g.)bushcrafters that follow them fanatically. Even the almighty grain orientation is something that wasnt an issue when many of us were taught or we were told exactly the opposite. Runout is the biggest cause of failure; grain orientation is probably tenth on the listl
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Well said! My go to axe for over 20 years has been a TT Flint Edge double bit with perfect horizontal grain... narry an issue yet!
 
BG_Farmer said:
Then all the axe hobbyists would call them and insist on handpicked flawless unvarnished handles, and a handful of handles would take as long as a gross! And the paying customers would be miffed at having to sort handles themselves.

I think all suppliers sort handles based on quality and do reject many unusable ones, but functionality is different from the " rules" that are insisted on by the obsessed (hobbyists) and the hapless (e.g.)bushcrafters that follow them fanatically. Even the almighty grain orientation is something that wasnt an issue when many of us were taught or we were told exactly the opposite. Runout is the biggest cause of failure; grain orientation is probably tenth on the listl
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I was actually talking about the mixing of their own grading system/terms on their own website. Somewhere mixed in there was humor - "total crap" wasn't a give away? I accidentally resurrected the dead horse AGAIN, but since we're on the subject, if they were graded as flawless (in a world with humor) then why would anyone have to call and insist on flawless? I feel like that should have been another key clue that I was being facetious. But I do have to wonder, how is functionality different from the "rules" when it's the rules they are apparently using to determine the functionality and set the grading terms? And while I don't personally get hung up on grain orientation, I do get a kick out of the run out rule when it is impossible to have a curved axe handle with sideways grain that doesn't have run out. You simply can't have one without the other, unless you've got the perfect tree with natural axe handle bends in the grain. So grain orientation is tenth but run out is first ....... I feel like the contradiction here is obvious. If you're strictly talking about straight handles then you're gonna have to modify your own special axe handle "rules", but since it's a thread about curved handles ... surely you follow the stream of logic here.


quinton said:
Well said! My go to axe for over 20 years has been a TT Flint Edge double bit with perfect horizontal grain... narry an issue yet!
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Really? Does it have run out? So which part are you agreeing with? The part where sideways grain makes no difference? Or the part where run out breaks angel's wings and makes babies cry?
 
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cityofthesouth said:
I was actually talking about the mixing of their own grading system/terms on their own website. Somewhere mixed in there was humor - "total crap" wasn't a give away? I accidentally resurrected the dead horse AGAIN, but since we're on the subject, if they were graded as flawless (in a world with humor) then why would anyone have to call and insist on flawless? I feel like that should have been another key clue that I was being facetious. But I do have to wonder, how is functionality different from the "rules" when it's the rules they are apparently using to determine the functionality and set the grading terms? And while I don't personally get hung up on grain orientation, I do get a kick out of the run out rule when it is impossible to have a curved axe handle with sideways grain that doesn't have run out. You simply can't have one without the other, unless you've got the perfect tree with natural axe handle bends in the grain. So grain orientation is tenth but run out is first ....... I feel like the contradiction here is obvious. If you're strictly talking about straight handles then you're gonna have to modify your own special axe handle "rules", but since it's a thread about curved handles ... surely you follow the stream of logic here.
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There was a bit of humor intended in my post as well.. I thought people would likely still be disappointed by a good number of " flawless handles" if the makers and the consumers did not agree on the criteria! I did not mean to insult you in any way.

I see your reasoning on grain orientation, and I think that may be the genesis of the rule, and i have suggested the same thing here myself. It is, however, quite possible to have another grain orientation on a curved handle where the grain runs straight though the bulk of the user end to the head and is probably just as unlikely to break. It is also 100% possible to have textbook perfect grain orientation and have runout halfway or more up the handle! I've seen several, including one that broke a day or so into use and was returned to the store I was at. The manager was trying to blame it on the customer, though he had given him another axe.

I do indeed prefer straight handles, and there may be certain advantages to curved handles that follow the rules as long as they do not runout, but I am getting tired of seeing perfectly good axe handles dismissed as total junk by people whove likely never used an axe for more than an hour in their life and are simply repeating something they saw on YouTube quoting a line in "An axe to grind". We have handle makers who have been in the business a century or more who apparently pay little or no attention to grain orientation. If only " total crap" resulted from imperfect grain orientation, you would think they would mention it in their grading standards, or at least make perfect grain orientation mandatory in their highest grades. Do they?

Again, none of my comments are intended to denigrate you or anyone else personally. I simply have not seen handles break prematurely for reasons other than runout, major hidden defect, or blatant abuse, and I have seen "total crap" handles both curved and straight perform for years without issue.
 
cityofthesouth said:
Really? Does it have run out? So which part are you agreeing with? The part where sideways grain makes no difference? Or the part where run out breaks angel's wings and makes babies cry?
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I say sideways grain makes no difference in durability! Like I said I've been using an axe for over 20 years with the "wrong grain".

If one looks at Hickory for its inherent property of shock resistance, and toughness, then it makes no general difference in grain direction.. and, if hickory is looked at in this way, there will be short grain in a curved handle regardless of grain orientation..Me and others have even found horizontal grain advantageous in certain situations like felling and bucking.

I have a Plumb Autograf axe with the original curved octagonal haft with take up wedge. Top shelf axe back in the day. This axe has seen some serious work at some point in its life, but I could sharpen it and take it to the woods for work right now. No doubt this axe was made back in the day when skilled people knew how to make axes. Its handle was made with horizontal grain! I also have a Bluegrass axe with original handle roughly the same vintage when handles were thin, and fawns feet were large, it too has sideways grain. Now the question is, were these handles made this way for a reason? Maybe back then the makers didn't have a manual to tell them right from wrong..:D
 
BG_Farmer said:
...and I think that may be the genesis of the rule, and i have suggested the same thing here myself.

If only " total crap" resulted from imperfect grain orientation, you would think they would mention it in their grading standards, or at least make perfect grain orientation mandatory in their highest grades. Do they?
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Of course it is the genesis of the rule. Your own personal rule fully supports the rule you reject because the more side ways the grain, the more curved the handle, the more run out it will have, and you just said that run out is the end of the world.

I asked which "term" was the higher grade handle, and 42 said contractor was it. But then Seymour mixed the terms industrial and contractor together, which seems to me, to really confuse the whole concept. So, how else are they grading them if not by grain orientation and run out? Do they? Well that was exactly the point. I have no idea, and it seems that they don't either, since they mix their own terms together. Poking fun of Seymour for their grading system didn't seem like cause for a rant on grain orientation or bagging on bushcrafters or people who follow guidelines that have been used, I'd suggest, by significantly more people (and every single handle manufacturer that ever existed in the country) to good effect than those insisting the exact opposite is "correct".


quinton said:
I say sideways grain makes no difference in durability!
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You forgot to reply to the broken wings and crying babies part.
 
cityofthesouth said:
Of course it is the genesis of the rule. Your own personal rule fully supports the rule you reject because the more side ways the grain, the more curved the handle, the more run out it will have, and you just said that run out is the end of the world.

I asked which "term" was the higher grade handle, and 42 said contractor was it. But then Seymour mixed the terms industrial and contractor together, which seems to me, to really confuse the whole concept. So, how else are they grading them if not by grain orientation and run out? Do they? Well that was exactly the point. I have no idea, and it seems that they don't either, since they mix their own terms together. Poking fun of Seymour for their grading system didn't seem like cause for a rant on grain orientation or bagging on bushcrafters or people who follow guidelines that have been used, I'd suggest, by significantly more people (and every single handle manufacturer that ever existed in the country) to good effect than those insisting the exact opposite is "correct".
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I believe much of the grading has to do with the overall quality of the wood.
 
COTS,
Let's forget crying babies and broken angel wings for a moment and look at something together. I saw this the other day:
http://woodtrekker.blogspot.ca/2010/11/collins-hunters-axe-review.html
Note the comments on the handle. I cannot agree. Being a simple man, I would be quite happy with such a handle, not only on a small hatchet, but even on a large axe. The grain runs straight through the handle, and I don't see any obvious flaws, yet it is described as "horrible", " the worst possible grain alignment for an axe handle", etc. Do you agree with the reviewer that "Grain like this takes away all the strength of the handle"? I honestly can't see how that handle is likely ever to fail, any more than the GFB handle.
 
Pfft. I'd mostly be upset by the awkward shape of the handle, but there's nothing wrong with the wood itself.
 
BG_Farmer said:
COTS,
Let's forget crying babies and broken angel wings for a moment and look at something together. I saw this the other day:
http://woodtrekker.blogspot.ca/2010/11/collins-hunters-axe-review.html
Note the comments on the handle. I cannot agree. Being a simple man, I would be quite happy with such a handle, not only on a small hatchet, but even on a large axe. The grain runs straight through the handle, and I don't see any obvious flaws, yet it is described as "horrible", " the worst possible grain alignment for an axe handle", etc.
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Yes it is horrible but mostly inconsequential in this case. There is very little curve to that particular handle so unintentional runout due to grain orientation is not a problem. Plus it's overly thick and is very short. There isn't much weight to a hatchet head either. All told you'd have to work hard to break it.

Pictured below is another perfectly horizontal grain 36" haft. You can readily see that runout at the curves is extreme. The first overstrike or prying motion performed with that handle and you'd be out scouting around for another one. Why take that chance?

axehafts1003Medium_zps89270ddc.jpg
 
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300Six said:
There is very little curve to that handle so unintentional runout due to grain orientation is not a problem. Plus it's overly thick and is very short. There isn't much weight to a hatchet head either. You'd have to work hard to break it.
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A quality Hickory blank should be seen as a bar of steel. Forget the grain. I have some pictures of a VERY overstrike abused horizontal grain axe that I will try to get up later today. It should put to rest the unintentional runout issue of a curved handle..
Here is a teaser, I will take more pics later..
 
quinton said:
A quality Hickory blank should be seen as a bar of steel. Forget the grain. I have some pictures of a VERY overstrike abused horizontal grain axe that I will try to get up later today. It should put to rest the unintentional runout issue of a curved handle..
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You are more than welcome to do as you see fit regarding handle selection but don't ever expect any orders for handles from me. Properties of wood are radically different from homogeneous barstock. Try making a handle from a cross-section of hickory (ie saw a 2 inch slab off a stump) and then tell me how far you got before it fell apart in your hands.
 
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300Six said:
You are more than welcome to do as you see fit regarding handle selection but don't ever expect any orders for handles from me. Properties of wood are radically different from homogeneous barstock. Try making a handle from a cross-section of hickory (ie saw a 2 inch slab off a stump) and then tell me how far you got before it fell apart in your hands.
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I really do see what you are trying say, as I have worked with wood all of my life as well (from the log woods to the cabinet shop) but, all of those rules don't apply to Hickory. And, I know wood and steel are very different. What I was doing was saying to look at Hickory like a rigid material with no grain..

Look at the pic I posted above. That old haft has as perfect as you can get horizontal grain. I would say that it has seen MANY more overstrikes than one, over many seasons as witnessed by the picture.. But, according to you one overstrike would be the end? I would feel confident taking it for a days work even with the damage.
The first overstrike or prying motion performed with that handle and you'd be out scouting around for another one.
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On the 2" thick Hickory round sawn from the stump? I say if it is sound without damage, you can not destroy it with your hands, and most likely you couldn't break it by stomping on it!
 
quinton said:
I really do see what you are trying say, as I have worked with wood all of my life as well (from the log woods to the cabinet shop) but, all of those rules don't apply to Hickory. And, I know wood and steel are very different. What I was doing was saying to look at Hickory like a rigid material with no grain..


On the 2" thick Hickory round sawn from the stump? I say if it is sound without damage, you can not destroy it with your hands, and most likely you couldn't break it by stomping on it!
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If through some fluke a rough blank sawn from a crosscut slab survived being shaped on the lathe (or via jig saw, rasps and files) you could snap the finished haft in two with virtually no effort.
 
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