The woodsworthy edge?

Barrabas

Barrabas

Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
1,135
I love the woods, and I love having a good sharp blade with me just as much.
Over the years I've spent a good bit of time trying to study & practice how to get the most durable, shaving sharp edge. Getting the shaving sharp edge is not a problem, but the problem I have is that after I get a fire ready through the normal phases (I'm not talking about a lot, just enough to get one good sized fire going), more times than not the hair popping edge is no longer... (Using Oak/Hickory/Maple/Pine etc)
It's not just the fire stuff either...I run into the same problem after skinning out just one deer; I have to be doing something wrong.
I can get home, and hit the blade a few times on a ceramic, and it is back, but it seems that I must be using an incorrect method, or the edge would be more sustained.
For me, and as many steels/grinds etc that I have used through the years, I can't blame it on a steel type, because I have run into the same issue with a variety of types from 01 to Infi to ATS34, 3v etc, etc, so for the sake of your precious time, I'm confident the issue is my technique completely.

I need to quantify my request for help here so it doesn't get out of hand with recommendations instead of proven methods: I am asking for the direction from those who USE their blades in the woods, and have found a proven method to sustain a shaving edge that will still be present after AT LEAST one round of fire starting prep (batoning/fuzz sticks/thumb to pencil width/shavings).
At the risk of this being moved to another section of the forum, Mods, please understand that I need the expertise from the folks that use their blades in the field, and I would really appreciate the perspective of this section of the forum.

So, for those that have proven ability to get a sustained edge, what is your method & how long does it last you under normal use in the field?

(If it helps, the blades I most want to get into this area are a scandi ground shookum -3V, a Gossman PSK - 01, and a Spyderco delica 4-VG10, all with varying edge types, so is it unproductive that I ask we stick to methods once on the stone, and not concentrate to much on angle as all would be different to some degree??, lastly I have a decent variety of carborundum stones, diamonds & ceramics to work from, so again technique is taking the blame, not tools)Thanks again for all the help!
 
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I don't really have any of the exotic steels you mention as I tend to stick with 1095 or 01. With both of those steels I've found that I can maintain an edge that will scrape, not pop , hairs off for some time by just stropping my knife on my pant legs etc after each use.

Just noticed you are talking mainly in relation to Scandi's.....most of my main users are flat/convexed as that is a grind I find easier to keep sharp.

I should add that I've had knives that scare the hairs off my leg but still suck when it comes to carving wood so I wouldn't use that as your yardstick.
If your knife is still performing as you need it to making fuzz sticks and carving trap triggers etc then don't lose any sleep over it.....just pack a Mac3 for those troublesome hairs !:D:thumbup:
 
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What is your current sharpening set up?
If we knew that we may be able to tell if you are doing something wrong.
 
Thanks Pit - I appreciate that :thumbup:, that method should help with the Gossman.
I appreciate the assist Chris. Starting from scratch, typically I use a coarse stone to develop a full burr on length of one side, switch sides and do the same, then work down in the same manner through a medium to fine grit carborundum, then switching finally to a semi fine ceramic (not quite as fine as the fine spyderco sharpmaker ceramic). I currently don't use any honing oils, but just do it dry. Once done, I do a pulling thumb nail srape with a slight angle in attempt to make sure I don't have a wire edge/burr that I missed through the steps on either side.
 
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I have two suggestions:

1) When you sharpen on a hard surface like that, the term for it is edge leading. Edge leading leaves a smaller burr than does and edge trailing technique. The finer the grit, the finer the burr. Since edge leading creates a finer burr to begin with, most people don't even realize there is a burr there. I would suggest doing some stropping as your final step, either on bare leather, or with a very, very fine compound on the leather. Stropped edges are known to last longer and be more durable than ones that have not.

2) Try getting the surface finish finer at least once. Get it to a mirror polish. Then, any touch up that you need to do (barring any major damage) should just be a matter of a lightly, lightly loaded strop, and you shouldn't have to hit the stones again.

If you feel like sending me something, I will polish it up, and send it back and you can give it a whirl.

Take care,
B
 
Another thing to mention is that if you watch any butchers they will always touch their knife up prior to each use. I think the ' keeping a razors edge ' thing is a bit of a myth. The only knives that never get dull are the ones that never get used !!!
I would rather have a knife hardened in the 56-58 range like the knife users of yesteryear rather than those some now have in the low 60's as they might dull quicker but they are much easier to touch back up !
 
Have you tried stropping after using the ceramic rod? Or to bring your edge back as soon as if starts to get dull?
 
Thanks again for the suggestions.
Brian, thank you for the coaching. I will certainly try both of those methods. Don't have any strop compound, but I've heard it said that some extremely light pressure on a leather belt would be sufficient, or is that a myth? and if using a belt, I assume I would use the smoothest side?
 
Chris, no I have not tried stropping with any measure of confidence in the past (other than every once in a while with no success, I think I was using to much pressure, I'll try again).
 
I think Brian is right, you may possibly have a burr built up and when it bends or breaks off the edge will be dull. Check out Murray Carters sharpening videos on YouTube. They are very helpful and he really has great tips on getting the burr off and keeping a sharp edge.
 
Brian Andrews said:
I have two suggestions:

1) When you sharpen on a hard surface like that, the term for it is edge leading. Edge leading leaves a smaller burr than does and edge trailing technique. The finer the grit, the finer the burr. Since edge leading creates a finer burr to begin with, most people don't even realize there is a burr there. I would suggest doing some stropping as your final step, either on bare leather, or with a very, very fine compound on the leather. Stropped edges are known to last longer and be more durable than ones that have not.

2) Try getting the surface finish finer at least once. Get it to a mirror polish. Then, any touch up that you need to do (barring any major damage) should just be a matter of a lightly, lightly loaded strop, and you shouldn't have to hit the stones again.

If you feel like sending me something, I will polish it up, and send it back and you can give it a whirl.

Take care,
B
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Solid advice here. A more refined/polished edge will wear less with use. Some guys prefer a toothy edge, but those wear down faster in my experience.
 
I field dress and butcher deer with Mora knives. I don't expect them to stay sharp, they need touch ups as I go. I use a steel or bottom of a ceramic coffee mug. Cut a while, sharpen a bit, cut some more. I like the rhythm of it. Filleting fish the routine is not much different. Cutting wood with a machete or axe, your wear it down and sharpen as needed. Join the tradition, if we were using flint or obsidian we would have to flake a new edge every so often. Be at peace with the routine, relax..enjoy using your knife as a tool. Take good care of it but in the end it is a tool not an extension of yourself or a reflection on you as a man or woman.
 
Thanks again all for all the help :thumbup:. Tknife, I'm sure that you/Brian/Scrap are dead on - It has to be a burr that I'm not feeling in a thumb scrape and this will make me take my finishing to a new level. I've been discouraged on stropping due to my poor technique, so it is apparent I've limited my skills until now.
The Murray Carter suggestion was a big help, learning a lot in watching those. This place is the best. ;)

For the others, Your right that if I touch it up regularly after each use it would not be a problem. That has been my method until now. But, my goal is to get the most out of a sharpening and see the max potential from each session so that I can then decide if it is a better time saver to put the extra effort into a strop after each major sharpening, or just use the touch up method while in the field. (sure it will end up a combo of both :-))
Planning to see how the new advice pans out this weekend.
BTW, when I'm skinning deer, I'm lazy and don't want to mess with stopping to touch up a blade unless I have to skin more than a couple out beforehand.
I would also think that if I sharpen correctly, I should be able to get a couple of fires started at least, and still be able to keep a shaving edge unless I'm just sloppy in the prep.
What started this was a friend (avid hunter) from several years ago that told me that the way you can tell if you have put a good edge on a knife, is if I could skin out 3 deer, and the knife would still shave, he had done it many times... that's my goal:-)
Unfortunately, I lost contact with him, so I can't learn the secret first hand from him (I was to arrogant to ask for details at the time).. Thankfully I've got a little time before next season to get my act together before I try again.
 
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Id say try a coarser edge, with micro bevels. I was doing some rope cutting tests about a year ago.using mannila rope, starting with a fresh edge that would pop hairs off my arm, and recorded the number of cuts it would make in the rope until it would no longer shave, and then when it would no longer aggresively cut the rope. what surprised me was that the finer the edge, the worse it cut the rope.

I finally settled on a norton fine india stone, or a fresh smiths fine diamond hone or worn smiths coarse diamoned hone to get the bur, then kinda steep micro-bevels to remove the burr worked best. this is for a good- longlasting working edge that will dress out multiple deer, antelope and elk without needing sharpening. I have a friend that I made a blade for, and sharpened it with above, and he said he dressed 6-8 elk, a handfull of deer, and around 8 antelope over a 5 year period and came to the conclusion that my knives didnt need sharpening cause he had never touched the edge to a stone or steel. when I saw it, it wouldnt quite shave, but 2 mins on a stone was back to original edge.

I had always been under the assuption that the finer the edge, the better. but about 6 or 7 years ago i started noticing that a coarse edge seemed to work just as goood, and I didnt have to spend alot of time on it. I should have done those rope cutting tests as a kid, would have saved alot of time on finer stones.
 
My personal tastes have followed Joe444's. I've always found a finely polished edge was not for me. I find they tend to slide too much and dull too fast for my cutting needs. I don't polish edges for just woodwork, so I speak of a multi-task edge. When I worked at an arctic char processing facility I would use a medium diamond hone to resharpen my fillet knives. I currently take a Spyderco Duckfoot as my on the go sharpener for both knife and axe. The duckfoot's sheath can give a quick strop if wanted too.
 
Honestly, I find that a knife performs quite fine well past the stage where it will shave hairs at least for much of the stuff I do. I used to bring in sharpening kits in the field all the time and I was pretty pre-occupied with that. Then one day it hit me, I really don't use my knife all that much when I'm actually out camping. I use it for a few things here and there including helping with wood prep as an accessory to my machete or axe....cut open some wrappers....whittle a stick or pot holder...none of those things really require that fine of an edge. They require an edge mind you, but by no means hair shaving sharp. So I usually enter the field with a hair shaving sharp knife, but like the OP the edge doesn't usually make it out that way. I just fix it when I return. Mind you, I do not skin animals on a regular basis. If my express purpose of the trip was hunting, I would probably have a dedicated skinning knife and a leather strop for touch ups.

The first addiction that comes with a love of cutlery is sharpness. While a sharp knife does distinguish itself as a quality knife and stands apart from the butterknife edge that most non-enthusiasts carry, knife addicts tend to get way to preoccupied with sharpness for their own good.
 
On of the cool things about being a knifemaker is having the grinder. Geometry is king, and makes more impact on performance that just about any other variable we have control over.

Are micro bevels more durable? Absolutely. Do micro bevels increase wear resistance? Absolutely. Unless your experiments include taking the exact same steel, exact same heat treat, and exact same geometry to different surface finishes, then it is not a valid comparison on surface finish alone.

“High Polish” means something different to everyone. When I refer to high polish, I am not talking about something that can be done with natural stones or diamond stones. I am talking about a 4000 or 8000 grit waterstone, or a 15 or 9 micron abrasive medium.

Given all other variables remain the same, high polish surface finishes are proven to be more durable. There are a lot of industry journal publications in the metallurgical field documenting this, and I don’t not intend to create that body of work here. I will however, give you guys some sources for those journals if you request it. I have access to them here at work, and can not give them out freely because they were paid for. But, if it interests you enough, you can purchase some, or you can generally get access to them at university libraries. If you guys are satisfied with your findings and your techniques, that is more than cool. But, I would not try and disapprove well documented scientific findings. At least…..I don’t have time for that :)

Obviously, based on all your guys personal preference for coarser edges, it is not a black and white issue. You have personal preference, cutting medium and the intended use of your knife that all effect performance.

If you are more likely to slice cut, rather than push cut, it is well known that a coarse edge does better there. If you are more likely to push cut, and carve, polished edge is the performance winner. If you are cutting cardboard, rope, or skinning animals, a coarse edge does great. If you are carving wood and crafting, there is no match for a polished edge. A course edge will tear wood fibers, especially in cross grains cuts. I am not surprsied that most folks here prefer a course edge based on the tasks that you are more likely to do. I realize that creating stuff from wood, in the field, that I am in the minority. I only hunt a couple months out of the year, but I hang out in the woods all year long. So, I don't want to argue about what works for me, and what works for you, because we are obviously doing different things and we are all right :)

If you ever hang out among woodcarvers, you will find that their tools, are highly polished, like a mirror. I am talking hand carvers here, not turning stuff on a lathe. They carve a lot, strop a little, carve a lot, strop a little. They do not spend hours and hours on stones doing maintence. The edge should never get to a point to require that. However, it can be tough by hand to get the surface finish to that level the first time. Once it is there, the maintence is easy. Which is why I offered to help him out if he needed it.

The only reason I posted in general on this topic is it sounded like the OP was mostly working moslty with wood, and not animals, rope or food. I believe there is no one surface finish for every task, just like there is no one knife for every task, one grind for every task, or one geometry for every task. But, I do believe a high surface finish is most suitable to the OP intended use.

B
 
kgd said:
Honestly, I find that a knife performs quite fine well past the stage where it will shave hairs at least for much of the stuff I do. I used to bring in sharpening kits in the field all the time and I was pretty pre-occupied with that. Then one day it hit me, I really don't use my knife all that much when I'm actually out camping. I use it for a few things here and there including helping with wood prep as an accessory to my machete or axe....cut open some wrappers....whittle a stick or pot holder...none of those things really require that fine of an edge. They require an edge mind you, but by no means hair shaving sharp. So I usually enter the field with a hair shaving sharp knife, but like the OP the edge doesn't usually make it out that way. I just fix it when I return. Mind you, I do not skin animals on a regular basis. If my express purpose of the trip was hunting, I would probably have a dedicated skinning knife and a leather strop for touch ups.

The first addiction that comes with a love of cutlery is sharpness. While a sharp knife does distinguish itself as a quality knife and stands apart from the butterknife edge that most non-enthusiasts carry, knife addicts tend to get way to preoccupied with sharpness for their own good.
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I sharpen to 2000 grit with sand paper laid over a strop and then black and green bark river compounds before I hit the woods and then sharpen when I get home. Like KGD I've noticed that the crazy sharpness goes away fast but the useable edge sticks around for quite a while. I also use my knife for more general utility then I do for any serious carving projects so YMMV in that regard. Having a knife that remains crazy sharp for a long time is ideal but I think people get a little too carried away with it. A useable edge is still...useable. ;)

Brian Andrews said:
Geometry is king, and makes more impact on performance that just about any other variable we have control over.
B
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Absolutely. I had a 5 dollar "asian market special" chefs knife that performed better then all of my knives in the kitchen even when it was butter knife dull. The reason was the edge geometry was just about perfect. Sadly the girlfriend tried to use the delicate edge to chop frozen chicken and chipped it out. The more I use knives the more I want good geometry over any other factor. I bought a knife from Farmer and the geometry of that knife is the best I've seen on a woods blade. It can make a pile of fuzz sticks and then sail right through a crusty baget. The crazy sharpness is gone but the edge geometry picks up the slack. Combined with my Izula 2, I'm not interested in buying anymore knives. I have 0 knife needs that these two can't do including all of my kitchen needs and I like to cook.
 
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pitdog said:
Another thing to mention is that if you watch any butchers they will always touch their knife up prior to each use. I think the ' keeping a razors edge ' thing is a bit of a myth. The only knives that never get dull are the ones that never get used !!!
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I think this is true. Like 01 to me it stays pretty sharp after starting a fire but parts of the edge won't shave anymore for me but 2 or 3 passes on a little loaded peice of leather and it will.

I think D2 and 3v stay sharp longer than 01 or 1095 or something but I don't find they retain their ability to shave any more than carbon.

May be asking too much for a knife to stay shaving after cutting much wood. Depending on how much wood, how dry it is and what kind. Oak and elm will take the shaving edge off quick. Maple too. birch not so much. Same with box elder.
 
Shaving sharpness is overrated. IMO, it's all about geometry. Steel choice is also overrated. A steel is only as good as the heat treat/temper and geometry. Sharpness is determined by the steels grain structure. The finer the grain the smoother/sharper it's going to feel. The steels hardness will determine edge holding. The harder the RC the longer it will hold an edge. The drawback is getting it resharpened if you let it dull.
Scott
 
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