THERE is NOT an answer for EVERYTHING!

C

chad2

Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
1,000
Look guys just because you do not think something works because the lab geeks can not figure out why it works, does not mean it does not work! For example my job! I am an electrician, electricity is a theory we still do not know exactly how it works but we know it works. Just because these lab geeks can not find out how fowlers heat treat works does not mean it doesnt do amazing things to the steel. So lets stop talking about how austenite transfer happens at -90 degrees and only in a milli second because there are many things that we can not explain exactly but we can give a cause and affect to a process. Lets stop citing books of info and start giving more info to those book writers. Start testing fowlers process compared to yours and let me know if your process is better. Dont tell me i am wrong because a book says its wrong. Because yet another example of my job i work on H60 sea hawks which is a helicopter and scientificly a helicopter should not fly so try and tell me that it does not fly because those lab geeks say it cant fly. Start contributing to more information instead of breaking down people who are trying to contribute. if everyone was like 30% of the ppl on this forum, we would have no information for those 30% to read and quote all day long.
 
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We should be incouraging more testing better processes. Just because someone failed numerus times trying something does not mean it can not be done with a slight tweak here and there and usually you get the best results from pushing things right to its edge. You water quenching ppl out there should understand this because i know that even with todays technology and info people still fail at water quenching a lot but it can be done and with amazing results
 
I appreciate being open-minded to different methods and approaches. Ed Fowler's process could very well work and give fantastic results. However, perhaps there is, at the very least, some truth in the "book" theory as well?

As you said, there isn't an answer for everything; Ed Fowler's heat treat procedure is only one approach to heat treating out of the many. I don't understand why you are so quick to dismiss possible knowledge from other very-informed people.
 
Don Nguyen said:
I appreciate being open-minded to different methods and approaches. Ed Fowler's process could very well work and give fantastic results. However, perhaps there is, at the very least, some truth in the "book" theory as well?

As you said, there isn't an answer for everything; Ed Fowler's heat treat procedure is only one approach to heat treating out of the many. I don't understand why you are so quick to disregard possible knowledge from other very-informed people.
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I have never disregarded any information given to me i have actually learned many things from these forums i use canola oil now because of it i also have tweaked my heat treat process more because of it on stainless steel and carbon steel. But i am getting sick of people telling me that what i am doing is just wasting my time because they read it in a book. Come on guys why not incourage me to keep up the work and test even more. Think of what you would not have today if information stopped completely in the 1960s we would be sitting here talking about 440c and how amazing it is and that nothing is better. Lol that is so funny

I also never said that the books were wrong what i am saying is there is no way in this galaxy that the way we heat treat steels is the very best ever.right? So get out there and find it dont put ppl down for trying to find it. I do not have the time to do extensive testing so i am going to take someones process and tweak it to what works for me. When i do get the time that ed fowler has to test and test i am going to, and ppl like you will ridicule me for it because you read in a book something different.
 
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Ah, the magical mystery explanation. That always simplifies everything. Just say it works because it doesn't not work. Double negative cancels out, linquistic trick solves the problem physics refuses to see as a problem.

If only life were so simple.
 
Why is it that when people have info backing them they will post for days but when they are proven wrong they stop posting or dont post at all. I knew i would not get a lot of posts on this lol.
 
tryppyr said:
Ah, the magical mystery explanation. That always simplifies everything. Just say it works because it doesn't not work. Double negative cancels out, linquistic trick solves the problem physics refuses to see as a problem.

If only life were so simple.
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It is so funny to me how people are so against change when you probably voted for obama lol that was a joke. But seriously knife making is probably one of the most changed processes in history and yet because it cant be proven how, you still reject it. Lets think like that about everything. lol that is probably the dumbest process of thinking i have ever heard. Why dont you go to an elementry school and tell them all that they will never be better then anything that has already happened and that they can never do anything better ever! sounds pretty stupid dosent it?
 
Chad, just because you don't understand the science doesn't mean science has no answers. Faith is a wonderful thing, and I don't mean to take away from that. Science has answers, and yes, they evolve over time because unlike faith, science challenges itself over and over again.

You argue against those who read something in a book... and you buttress your argument with something you read on the Internet. "My authoritative source is better than yours". It's a faith based argument... you have faith in Fowler, others have faith in physics.

In all honesty, I don't understand the physics any more than you do.

So yes, there may be martensite fairies living in your freezer making your blade harder. And if you choose to believe in the, more power to you brother.

- Greg
 
chad2 said:
because the lab geeks can not figure out why it works, does not mean it does not work! For example my job! I am an electrician, electricity is a theory we still do not know exactly how it works but we know it works.
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I'm an electrical engineer by trade, and the physics of electricity and electromagnetism is extremely well understood and mathematically characterized. To the point that I help design chips with 7 billion transistors entirely in a simulation environment that goes straight to the semiconductor fab (with no physical prototypes).

Gravitation is a theory too, but you can be assured that if you drop something above your foot, it will hurt proportional to the mass of the object :)

Just because these lab geeks can not find out how fowlers heat treat works does not mean it doesnt do amazing things to the steel. So lets stop talking about how austenite transfer happens at -90 degrees and only in a milli second because there are many things that we can not explain exactly but we can give a cause and affect to a process.
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Metallurgy is also extremely well understood. You mentioned on your previous thread that you've been following Ed's freezer process. You might consider looking up "confirmation bias", then reading the ASM Heat Treater's Guide.

Good luck! :)
 
tryppyr said:
Chad, just because you don't understand the science doesn't mean science has no answers. Faith is a wonderful thing, and I don't mean to take away from that. Science has answers, and yes, they evolve over time because unlike faith, science challenges itself over and over again.

You argue against those who read something in a book... and you buttress your argument with something you read on the Internet. "My authoritative source is better than yours". It's a faith based argument... you have faith in Fowler, others have faith in physics.

In all honesty, I don't understand the physics any more than you do.

So yes, there may be martensite fairies living in your freezer making your blade harder. And if you choose to believe in the, more power to you brother.

- Greg
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Aaahhhhh! How many times do i have to explain this before someone gets it i am NOT! Saying that the books are wrong but that there may be more to it! And there is no way i HE// you can tell me that right now the way we heat treat our steels is the absolute best way to heat treat. So all i am saying is DONT! tell me i am wasting my time because i am doing something that you dont understand. I am trying to find better processes instead of just taking someones word for it.
 
Every job has the proclivity to expand to fill the time allotted to it. If testing is important to you, you will have time to do it.

Ever since I was a little kid I always wondered why and what for, this desire continues to guide me, and I hope I forever remain driven by the value of independent thought. Individual research and the value of friends who follow the same search for knowledge leaves one in good company.

I appreciate your support chad2, not for me but for the future.
 
lazlo said:
I'm an electrical engineer by trade, and the physics of electricity and electromagnetism is extremely well understood and mathematically characterized. To the point that I help design chips with 7 billion transistors entirely in a simulation environment that goes straight to the semiconductor fab (with no physical prototypes).

Gravitation is a theory too, but you can be assured that if you drop something above your foot, it will hurt proportional to the mass of the object :)



Metallurgy is also extremely well understood. You mentioned on your previous thread that you've been following Ed's freezer process. You might consider looking up "confirmation bias", then reading the ASM Heat Treater's Guide.

Good luck! :)
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I again never said it was not understood very well i said it is still the theory of electricity, tell me that it is not. You seem like you know what you are talking about when it comes to electricty so that means you can read, so start reading what i am writing
 
chad2 said:
i am NOT! Saying that the books are wrong but that there may be more to it!
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"the books" say that water freezes at 32°F. If someone writes that they put water into a container at 40°, and got it to freeze, what do you conclude?
 
Ed works really hard to make the best blade he can.
Some of the other folks who share their experience here do too (including some who take a rigorous, scientific approach, using the best repeatable data available)- I'm grateful DAILY for the chance to learn from so many people who have put in the time to be able to produce such fine work- if they disagree, I get TWO good answers instead of one!
Where's the downside to that?

Andy G.
 
lazlo said:
"the books" say that water freezes at 32°F. If someone writes that they put water into a container at 40°, and got it to freeze, what do you conclude?
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I would test it, like i have done, ppl told me that i could ruin my blade for doing what i did but that was not the case, was it? Also i know that we have a very strong grasp on how electricty works trust me i am on this forum with a tablet which is a touch screen. I also work with electrical systems on helicopters that do things i could never do my self. I am not an idiot i know we have a great grasp on what we can get electricty to do for us. But can you tell me that we know everything about what electricity can do for us? No you can not and as an electrician you know that personally.
 
chad2 said:
Because yet another example of my job i work on H60 sea hawks which is a helicopter and scientificly a helicopter should not fly so try and tell me that it does not fly because those lab geeks say it cant fly.

.
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Seriously man, what the hell are you talking about. Fundamentally I agree with your main point, and I know we're supposed to play nice around here, but Jesus Harold Christ on rubber crutches, are you high?
 
hey chad2 did you re etch that piece of alabama yet? Heres a piece after just a couple dips and sands, i think your friend would appreciate you going above and beyond, and bringing bring him the best out of that damascus. pm me if you want some info on my mixes, etc. Greg

knives521.jpg
 
elementfe said:
Ed works really hard to make the best blade he can.
Some of the other folks who share their experience here do too (including some who take a rigorous, scientific approach, using the best repeatable data available)- I'm grateful DAILY for the chance to learn from so many people who have put in the time to be able to produce such fine work- if they disagree, I get TWO good answers instead of one!
Where's the downside to that?

Andy G.
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There is nothing wrong with that, where these ppl are going wrong is by saying that i am wrong and they are right i would love to here how they do it but dont tell me that they think i am wasting my time. Just say hey i have tried that and have found that i get better results by doing it like this, and i would say i will try that thank you. :-)
 
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