THERE is NOT an answer for EVERYTHING!

Not at all... Unless the artist claims his particular brand of art better represents the criteria from which all good art is judged.

Maybe you don't intend it Ed, but I feel you go past promoting your own brand of knifemaking into a passive-aggressive condemnation of anything other than your way.

I don't think that's what Ed intends, however I sense it elsewhere... more from the reverse scientific method guys.

The way I see it is that, Ed stays true to himself at any cost and makes his knives the way "he thinks" is best. He believes in his own work, which is good (which we all should do) and he has proven to be very successful at it. He also shares it with others. How others "react" to it is their business and/or their problem,... yet they keep insisting on making it Ed's problem... when he already won and doesn't have anything else to gain by it.

Yet he humbly foregoes his own victory and tries his best to satisfy those who still question it.

I only say this because I think there are many others that must suffer the same types of injustices.

It's all in your mind, Rick... How else could Ed and myself be friends and have a mutual professional respect for each other, different as we are? If we can, you all can too. Ed is no threat to me and I'm no threat to him. We each have our own thing and that's O.K.
 
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Rick, I can't make a decent knife without eating, sleeping, thinking and smoking a cigarette or two, someone else probably could,... but for me they are necessary steps.... ask anyone who knows me well. I got lots of witnesses. ;)
That is why I have no problems with your brand of knifemaking, bud... or have issues with the opinions you express on these boards.:thumbup:

Now, take the above quote and edit it a bit...
You can't make a decent knife without eating, sleeping, thinking and smoking a cigarette or two, ,... they are necessary steps.... ask anyone who knows me well. I got lots of witnesses. ;)
And it is no longer an opinion but an asscertion.
 
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The only one I have left is coated with "indifference". Which doesn't fit my minds eye properly.

Just clean it off and try putting it over your left eye with your right eye still opened, while you scratch your head and pat your belly,… and you'll see what I'm talking about! LOL.

... and dance a little jig while you're at it. :)
 
Thanks, Tai... now I look like a fool.... and uncoordinated fool.... when can I stop doing this?

Later, bud
 
Thanks, Tai... now I look like a fool.... and uncoordinated fool.... when can I stop doing this?

Later, bud

... you can stop as soon as you feel that you've learned your lesson and don't need to ask permission.

I can wait.
 
Just for the sake of discussion: What would your sentiment be if Rex and I had decided to copyright our work and or kept all our methods secret and revealed none of our methods, only the performance qualities?
 
Just for the sake of discussion: What would your sentiment be if Rex and I had decided to copyright our work and or kept all our methods secret and revealed none of our methods, only the performance qualities?

If that were the case, we wouldn’t be having this discussion,... and wouldn't be learning anything from it.
 
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Just for the sake of discussion: What would your sentiment be if Rex and I had decided to copyright our work and or kept all our methods secret and revealed none of our methods, only the performance qualities?
My sentiments fall in line with Tai's. This thread wouldn't exist.
 
Wow! It looks like we finally agree on something.

I've often wondered if Ed would have been better off not sharing his process or methods, just the results,... Or just sharing the process and results with no attempt at explaining them metalurgically,...probably so. It sure would have simplified things for him. However, that’s not what Ed has done. The only reason I can think of that he has tried to explain his work and satisfy the curiosity of the masses, is to try and help others understand and make the kinds of knives he makes,… if that‘s what they desire.

That said, I think some of the explanations he has come up with can be more confusing than helpful if viewed against the backdrop of conventional metallurgy or reverse scientific method.... although I doubt that was his intention.
 
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... not that "conventional metallurgy" or our understanding of it necessarily has all the answers either though. ;)

Bladesmithing and heat treating knife blades are "specialties",... with all the peculiarities that are a part of any specialization.
 
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.... Therefore, the "specialists" themselves are the authorities in their perspective fields and/or areas of specialization...

And of course, there is always specialization within specialization.

Conclusion: We each are the ultimate authority and/or authors of our own work… and are each "special".... especially Rick! ;)
 
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Way back in early days when I first mentioned multiple quench the discussions really opened up. The ABS tried to kick me out for heresy, when I first wrote about it. While I learned it on my own hook, in my shop and through testing blades simply testing knives doing what knives are made to do - cut - the outcry was loud and strong. Then we found that US steel once had a patten on multiple quench the opposition to my thoughts got pretty thin.

Later I found a footnote in a text written in the 30's about multiple quench and in a footnote they stated that "this is the finest grain we have ever seen in 5160" and as time passed few blade smiths tried it and spoke of their results. Today there is little argument about it, it works well with 5160 and 52100 and some have reported good results using other steels.

We have not talked about anything new, what we have found was probably known by the makers of wootz and many makers since.

When ever anyone finds out anything that is not in regular accepted usage the trend is to condemn it. Any maker who deviates from what has become tradition, he can expect to take a lot of criticism, this is a fact from Prometheus to today. But we as makers have the freedom to explore any realm we wish and if we want to encourage others to work and share their results the art of the knife will continue to grow.

One thought that has guided me came to me from the Kennedy administration -"Behold the turtle, he will make no progress unless he has the courage to stick his neck out."

This I have done and will continue to do. Maybe I will receive praise, most of the time criticism, but for me it is worth it. For without discussion and the courage to explore where others fear to go we as the knife community will stagnate and those who use out knives will never know what could have been.
 
Good points Ed.

Conventionality and groupthink,… just lead to mediocrity and stagnation.
 
The big problem these days with the majority of lab geeks and/or "knife nerds" is that,… they just aren’t nearly “nerdy” enough to really get people’s attention. LOL

Ever watch “The Big Bang Theory”?,… now those nerds are cool. They take risks and take "nerdhood" to a whole new level!… My favorite show right now. They "nerd out" and let their "nerd flags" fly! True heroes of the “nerdhood/brotherhood“. :)

... only thing worse than a nerd, is a mediocre nerd. ;)
 
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Then we found that US steel once had a patten on multiple quench the opposition to my thoughts got pretty thin.
I tried to find that patten. Can you provide the patten office number?

One thought that has guided me came to me from the Kennedy administration -"Behold the turtle, he will make no progress unless he has the courage to stick his neck out."
This I have done and will continue to do. Maybe I will receive praise, most of the time criticism, but for me it is worth it. For without discussion and the courage to explore where others fear to go we as the knife community will stagnate and those who use out knives will never know what could have been.
This passage had a lot of meaning for me and is one of the reasons I decided to post in this thread again. I have received many criticizing emails(and a few threats) in questioning your methods, Ed. You, yourself follow the above philosophy and graciously answer repetative questioning but many of your collegues do not. They attack me, citing the years you have dedicated to making a better knife and how insignificant and disrespectful I am. I have never questioned your dedication. Infact, on more than one occassion have publicly confirmed my respect for your cause AND the outstanding performance of your knives. I only ever criticize your presentaion of FACT where I have not seen supportive proof. A quick example... You once told the story of a knife that hung on your wall for over a decade before spontaniously breaking in two. You later deduced that it was because of the way it was ground. I asked how you came to that resolve and your answer was that you examined it thoroughly and it was the only logical conclusion. I don't consider that a convincing answer but it was all I got, that day. On another occasion, I asked for you to provide the data on your freezer treatments and you told me things that sounded convincing but without the requested labwork could only be considered assertions. I admit, that the raw data would probably look like jiberish to me but I have friends who know what they are looking at and can interpret it. I also hear you when you say that the lab folks need to get paid for their work, too, so I look forward to the publication that you tell me is in the works and would happily pay to read it but what do I do until then? I feel like we are playing poker and you have announced a "royal flush" while only laying down 4 of the 5 cards in your hand. Most would see the potential strength in that hand as presented but for the win, I still need to see that last card.

The plain truth is that I feel extremely uncomfortable questioning a man with your reputation. I don't have the metallurgical background, the years of bladesmithing or the earned respect that you do. I could be damaging what little rep I do have... which would be unfortunate. I feel aweful for implying any sort of disrespect toward an elder who has thus far been very polite to me. Perhaps, I am totally in the wrong. I imagine people think I carry on with the intention to make a name for myself by attacking a giant. I don't see myself as that type of person and dread the thought of folks thinking that of me. I have friends and knifemakers who I consider to be very level-headed and knowledgeable(on both sides of the issue, BTW)... my "go to" guys. If any of them were to tell me to back off, I would.

Infact, Ed, keeping my last quoted passage of yours in mind, if you tell me to back-off, I will.

Sincerely
Rick
 
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I can't speak for Ed,... but from my experience, the explanations are only important to the knifemaking/knifemaker critics, skeptics and students. Why is that? Do they secretly plan to copy, while at the same time discrediting and criticizing?… are they trying to steel the market?

The vast majority of customers are really only interested in the "real world" performance and design features of a knife… and of course, the price. They couldn't care less about the metallurgical mumbo jumbo and rightly so...

I don't think any maker should feel obligated to explain their work down to the atomic level,... to their potential competition. If they choose to do so,… that’s their business and their motives are their own.

What I really don't get is, how a relatively new and mediocre knifemaker somehow thinks this type of public showdown with the big boys could possibly help his career,… make him any more of a man, or any better of a knifemaker?

Rick,... If you are as half as smart as I think you are,... you should just stand down and do your own thing. Capitalize on what you have going for you and worry about yourself. The big thing you have, is your expertise as a knife user and your survival skills... "real world stuff". Just go with that, quit worrying and whining about Ed. Do us all a favor dude!
 
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